Lebron isn't capable of beating a great player convincingly, while MJ routinely did

[Phoenix]

Lebron was the best player in that series...but Dirk and Jason Kidd were the second and third best players in that series.


.

Did you by chance watch a 'what if' 2011 finals where Wade didn't lead both teams in scoring, blocks, steals and GmSc? Also by Jason Kidd I assume you mean 'Terry' because Kidd sure as hell wasn't the 3rd best player in that finals.

If Lebron was the best player in the series, the Heat would have won. Hell, if he was the 2nd best player they win.

[SouBeachTalents]

Did you by chance watch a 'what if' 2011 finals where Wade didn't lead both teams in scoring, blocks, steals and GmSc? Also by Jason Kidd I assume you mean 'Terry' because Kidd sure as hell wasn't the 3rd best player in that finals.

If Lebron was the best player in the series, the Heat would have won. Hell, if he was the 2nd best player they win.

LeBron was obv the best player in 2011, who are you to question John8204?

[sdot_thadon]

You have a point about the Bulls getting an MVP on a welfare deal. Thats one thing that helps build great teams for sure. But this?

Lebron was the best player in that series...but Dirk and Jason Kidd were the second and third best players in that series.

Nah. Lebron wasn't the best player that series. He probably was the best player that postseason up to that point tho. I mean he was getting Mj comparisons in the media just days before the finals.

The further we get away from 2011 the more things show how fickle fans/haters can be. Kobe fans bag on the series while hoping nobody notices he had just as bad a series against the Mavs and got swept as defending champs.

Also this season's dynamic of whether or not LeBron is able to take a backseat to a better player makes 2011 kinda funny, as its the one time he let someone else take primacy over him on a court and coincidentally is his most criticized moment ever. 2011 is what LeBron being "carried" looks like.

[John8204]

I'm talking generally not in the series that the best players on the all-time rankings would be...Lebron, Dirk, Kidd, Wade, Bosh, Marion, Terry, Butler, Chandler, Barea. Yes Miami had a big three but Dallas had the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th best players on the court. The idea that well Jason Kidd fell off in 2012 doesn't negate the man was an All-star in 2010 and won a title in 2011 and did a phenominal job balancing out that roster. Doing what y'know a PG is supposed to do.

You can write all the novels you want, but you can't get around the fact that Lebron has massively underachieved throughout his career. Nobody's done less with more.

Jordan rose to the challenge, Lebron shriveled.

Truth hurts.

You are not "underachieving" if you make the finals for 10 seasons. If you make the finals five times you are an all-timer. I don't care if you are a Jordan fan it's the insecurity and dishonesty from Jordan that turns my stomach. It's the notion that in an ear where everyone was juicing in every sport...not MJ it's perfectly normally for a 25 year old to be bald with anger issues. Jordan having a clean slate and carteblanche over the league and he still couln't make the playoffs and quit to save his numbers...what who well look over there.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yep, all time ranking is relevant for how you performed in a series. Shaq was the best player in the '06 Finals using this criteria.

[Phoenix]

Yep, all time ranking is relevant for how you performed in a series. Shaq was the best player in the '06 Finals using this criteria.

Also Kareem was the best player in the 88 finals.

[Phoenix]

I'm talking generally not in the series that the best players on the all-time rankings would be...Lebron, Dirk, Kidd, Wade, Bosh, Marion, Terry, Butler, Chandler, Barea. Yes Miami had a big three but Dallas had the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th best players on the court. The idea that well Jason Kidd fell off in 2012 doesn't negate the man was an All-star in 2010 and won a title in 2011 and did a phenominal job balancing out that roster. Doing what y'know a PG is supposed to do.

That logic doesn't work generally either because Wade by most accounts is ranked higher than Kidd. So he was both in a historical sense greater but was also a markedly better player in the moment. Wade was considered a top 3-4 player in 2011. Now, I've argued enough with you about rankings to know that sitting on an ant hill with my ass covered in maple syrup would be a better use of my time, so Im not going to debate the historical rankings between Wade and Kidd. But in the context of the 2011 finals, who's better in the moment is the only thing that matters to the result of that series, and its weird as fukk that what I assume is a mature( of age) adult actually has to have that explained. Like I doubt even a 10 year old would use that sort of reasoning.

[John8204]

That logic doesn't work generally either because Wade by most accounts is ranked higher than Kidd. So he was both in a historical sense greater but was also a markedly better player in the moment. Wade was considered a top 3-4 player in 2011. Now, I've argued enough with you about rankings to know that sitting on an ant hill with my ass covered in maple syrup would be a better use of my time, so Im not going to debate the historical rankings between Wade and Kidd. But in the context of the 2011 finals, who's better in the moment is the only thing that matters to the result of that series, and its weird as fukk that what I assume is a mature( of age) adult actually has to have that explained. Like I doubt even a 10 year old would use that sort of reasoning.

Personally for me Dwayne Wade gets overrated he's a top ten SG but look Kidd was washed in 2012 and Wade was washed in 2017. You people just completely ignore and erase Jason Kidd from that Mavericks team like he didn't do a great job and wasn't the bigger factor in them winning a title. You can rank Wade over Kidd all-time but should you...the guy won a single playoff series on his own at the 1 option, Kidd made two finals appearences with some of the worst teams of all-time.

But for some reason you don't want to talk rankings with me...

[Phoenix]

Personally for me Dwayne Wade gets overrated he's a top ten SG but look Kidd was washed in 2012 and Wade was washed in 2017. You people just completely ignore and erase Jason Kidd from that Mavericks team like he didn't do a great job and wasn't the bigger factor in them winning a title. You can rank Wade over Kidd all-time but should you...the guy won a single playoff series on his own at the 1 option, Kidd made two finals appearences with some of the worst teams of all-time.

But for some reason you don't want to talk rankings with me...

No, I dont want to discuss rankings with you. I think Wade is higher all-time but there's not a huge point of separation. Kidd went to the finals in what is universally regarded as a historically weak eastern conference. At no point past like 2004 would that Nets team sniff a finals.

I really dont care if you have Kidd ahead historically. Its irrelevant to who was better in 2011. Again, this is like arguing that Kareem was the best player in the 1988 finals on account of what he was in his prime a decade earlier or his historical legacy. Its just a ridiculous talking point and I think you make a habit of doing it because otherwise you say little that would garner any attention. So congrats, you managed to suck me into another exchange but this is where I bow out. Again, don't give a single shit if you have Kidd over Wade historically, it simply has sweet fukk all to do with 2011 and no rational mind would argue otherwise.

[SouBeachTalents]

No, I dont want to discuss rankings with you. I think Wade is higher all-time but there's not a huge point of separation. Kidd went to the finals in what is universally regarded as a historically weak eastern conference. At no point past like 2004 would that Nets team sniff a finals.

I really dont care if you have Kidd ahead historically. Its irrelevant to who was better in 2011. Again, this is like arguing that Kareem was the best player in the 1988 finals on account of what he was in his prime a decade earlier or his historical legacy. Its just a ridiculous talking point and I think you make a habit of doing it because otherwise you say little that would garner any attention. So congrats, you managed to suck me into another exchange but this is where I bow out. Again, don't give a single shit if you have Kidd over Wade historically, it simply has sweet fukk all to do with 2011 and no rational mind would argue otherwise.

Even Kidd over Wade all time is bad, you'd be hard pressed to find many rankings with Kidd ranked higher. But this is also the guy who has Shaq ranked 25th all time and just tried arguing Wade wasn't the first option in '05 or '06.

[John8204]

Even Kidd over Wade all time is bad, you'd be hard pressed to find many rankings with Kidd ranked higher. But this is also the guy who has Shaq ranked 25th all time and just tried arguing Wade wasn't the first option in '05 or '06.

When your argument is "people say" and not what actually happened that is an all-time bad argument. Gee what a shocker people inflate Shaq, Jordan, and Wade. One person is argueing well Kidd's title runs don't count because the East was so terrible...in a thread where the "GOAT" couldn't even make the playoffs with a team he built with a number 1 pick and a great first option in Jerry Stackhouse.

I am genuinely sorry that most of you are too emotional to deal with facts, but I'm still going to argue my case and state my opinions which are based on what actually happened not what people say.

[Phoenix]

Even Kidd over Wade all time is bad, you'd be hard pressed to find many rankings with Kidd ranked higher. But this is also the guy who has Shaq ranked 25th all time and just tried arguing Wade wasn't the first option in '05 or '06.

Every publicized list from the likes of ESPN, Bleacher report, SLAM and the like tend to have Wade between 25-30 and Kidd 30-35. But as you said, based on some of his other takes there's no reason to given his opinions any real energy. I have to get better at ignoring it.

[John8204]

Every publicized list from the likes of ESPN, Bleacher report, SLAM and the like tend to have Wade between 25-30 and Kidd 30-35. But as you said, based on some of his other takes there's no reason to given his opinions any real energy. I have to get better at ignoring it.

Well as long as you are listening to corporate media who promote people in the media. Why look at facts and history when you can listen to people and businesses who have business interested with their buddies.

[Phoenix]

Well as long as you are listening to corporate media who promote people in the media. Why look at facts and history when you can listen to people and businesses who have business interested with their buddies.

What corporate media agenda is pushing Dwayne Wade over Jason Kidd historically? Produce the receipts or STFU.

[Phoenix]

When your argument is "people say" and not what actually happened that is an all-time bad argument. Gee what a shocker people inflate Shaq, Jordan, and Wade. One person is argueing well Kidd's title runs don't count because the East was so terrible...in a thread where the "GOAT" couldn't even make the playoffs with a team he built with a number 1 pick and a great first option in Jerry Stackhouse.

I am genuinely sorry that most of you are too emotional to deal with facts, but I'm still going to argue my case and state my opinions which are based on what actually happened not what people say.

Oh I missed this nugget. I didnt say Kidd finals runs dont count, but they WERE historically weak. You use some facts and dismiss others when it suites you.The point of saying Kidds finals teams were in a weak conference is to say his teams wouldn't have made the finals in the latter half of the decade when Wade has weaker talent on the 09 and 10 Heat team. Frankly they wouldn't have made it past 2004. They aren't beating the 04 Pistons, the 05 Pistons, the 06 Heat, likely wouldn't have beaten the 07 Cavs, the 08 Celtics, 09 Magic or 10 Celtics.

You say Wade only won one playoff series as the first option. I assume you're referring to 2016, so youre basically dismissing that Wade was the first option with a declining Shaq who played like a glorified role player in the finals. Or you'll do the '2006 finals officiating was suspect' shtick and even if there were some questionable calls, it doesn't dismiss that Wade was still the first option taking them to the finals. You also dismiss that Kidd in his prime couldn't get out of the first round 8 times, but you give Wade shit for doing it twice when the Heat were transitioning. Again, you decide what facts you want to use or dismiss. Calling an inefficient chucker like Stackhouse a great first option to pair with a 40 year old Jordan is also a gem.

Its hilarious how you say we're too emotional, you're literally too stupid to have a good discussion with.I dont know what you look like but you must have the most punchable face. Absolutel fukking moron.