Is it true that Lebron never scored on last possession of 1-poss game in 10 Finals??

[1987_Lakers]

Oh shit, Peja is online. Be prepared to see 3ball run.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

It isn't lying to say that Jordan is a vastly superior clutch performer - I just got the numbers wrong

First you got their scoring numbers wrong.

I manually checked, and confirmed this.

Then you pivoted to shooting efficiency. I manually checked, and confirmed this was incorrect too.

Then, after being proven wrong twice, in separate posts, you thereafter confidently declared that Jordan had a higher offensive rating, despite providing no evidence.

No, you weren’t merely “wrong”, because anyone that’s been proven wrong this many times would show more circumspection instead of blindly side-arming shit against a wall and hoping it’ll stick.

because I picked the wrong years

…you didn’t pick out any years. You claimed this was for LeBron’s entire finals career.

- old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the 2011, 2014, or 2017 Finals (a near-doubling in 2017)

The whole point of examining 4th quarter statistics is that they’re supposed to shine a light on how a player did in high-leverage situations…


…which makes it patently silly to use the ‘14 and ‘17 4th quarters as proof of anything.

Most of these games weren’t close going into the fourth. LeBron’s fourth quarter play wasn’t any more consequential than his 1st-3rd quarter play.

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes.

36% more scoring in the 4th quarte

And roughly a third less rebounds on less assists and lower efficiency.

on superior efficiency per possession

Where is the evidence to support this?

Again, from eyeballing it, it appears that LeBron’s offensive rating is a couple of points higher.

Given that you are now 0/2 in specific statistical claims made comparing these two runs, and given that my own, more trustworthy eyes and intuition believe based on a cursory glance that LeBron has the higher offensive rating in these situations, I have no reason to believe. Blessedly, you will do nothing to support your claim either.

and comparable true shooting

Lower true shooting, and significantly lower rebounds/assists.

despite max defensive attention (compared to Lebron having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention)

Against the 9th and 17th ranked defences, on teams where he had ample help in the other facets of the game (defence, rebounding, playmaking) to allow him to focus on his strengths unabated.


If you want to argue the relatively uncontroversial position that Jordan is the Finals GOAT, do that. Just don’t lie and exaggerate constantly.

(Who am I kidding, please continue to do alll of the above lmao.)

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Oh shit, Peja is online. Be prepared to see 3ball run.

The oddest thing about all of this might just be that I generally can’t be assed to argue with inordinately stubborn morons like 3ball, in basically any other walk of life…

…but he’s just so damn proud of his ability to get the last word in, and his cronies have been fooling themselves for years about what this implies…so it’s been a delight to see the final trump card crumble. Pride really does come before the fall.

[SouBeachTalents]

First you got their scoring numbers wrong.

I manually checked, and confirmed this.

Then you pivoted to shooting efficiency. I manually checked, and confirmed this was incorrect too.

Then, after being proven wrong twice, in separate posts, you thereafter confidently declared that Jordan had a higher offensive rating, despite providing no evidence.

No, you weren’t merely “wrong”, because anyone that’s been proven wrong this many times would show more circumspection instead of blindly side-arming shit against a wall and hoping it’ll stick.





…you didn’t pick out any years. You claimed this was for LeBron’s entire finals career.




The whole point of examining 4th quarter statistics is that they’re supposed to shine a light on how a player did in high-leverage situations…


…which makes it patently silly to use the ‘14 and ‘17 4th quarters as proof of anything.

Most of these games weren’t close going into the fourth. LeBron’s fourth quarter play wasn’t any more consequential than his 1st-3rd quarter play.

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes.




And roughly a third less rebounds on less assists and lower efficiency.



Where is the evidence to support this?

Again, from eyeballing it, it appears that LeBron’s offensive rating is a couple of points higher.

Given that you are now 0/2 in specific statistical claims made comparing these two runs, and given that my own, more trustworthy eyes and intuition believe based on a cursory glance that LeBron has the higher offensive rating in these situations, I have zero reason to believe you and you will do nothing to support your claim.



Lower true shooting, and significantly lower rebounds/assists.



Against the 9th and 17th ranked defences, on teams where he had ample help in the other facets of the game (defence, rebounding, playmaking) to allow him to focus on his strengths unabated.


If you want to argue the relatively uncontroversial position that Jordan is the Finals GOAT, do that. Just don’t lie and exaggerate constantly.

(Who am I kidding, please continue to do alll of the above lmao.)

[3ba11]

First you got their scoring numbers wrong.

I got the years wrong, not the numbers

old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the Finals for 2011, 2014 or 2017

In these years, Lebron averaged 5 ppg in the 4th just like I said, or even worse (3 ppg in 11' or 14')

Then you pivoted to shooting efficiency. I manually checked, and confirmed this was incorrect too.

Where did you get the true shooting data for Lebron's 4th quarters in the Finals?

And your numbers showed that the true shooting was close even though Lebron faced half the defensive attention as Jordan (lebron had equal-scoring partners while jordan doubled everyone's scoring in many Finals, aka all eyes on him) - so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.

Then, after being proven wrong twice, in separate posts, you thereafter confidently declared that Jordan had a higher offensive rating, despite providing no evidence.

.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron is a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals (Westbrook).. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever

No, you weren’t merely “wrong”, because anyone that’s been proven wrong this many times would show more circumspection instead of blindly side-arming shit against a wall and hoping it’ll stick.

Nothing I've said is wrong - see the above responses

Nothing that I've ever said about Lebron is wrong or exaggerated - bad fits and point guard stats (hold-time and assisted rate) confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions and is actually an abnormal ball-dominator for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles never developed a single young player into meaningful producer in 20 years (zero young player development), while also preventing elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs regardless of cast or on-paper talent advantage (preseason favorite status).

This is my thesis and you already know that each point is backed up by significant statistical proof - nothing you have ever said has refuted this or backed me off any of this - so kudos for accomplishing nothing..

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes (in 2014 and 2017 fourth quarters).

Okay but Lebron only averaged between 3.0 and 7.7 in the 4th quarter of the Finals from 2011-2014 (carried compared to Jordan) and:

From BBallBreakdown on youtube:

LeBron James scored 1.1 points a minute when the Heat were getting blown out by 15+ BUT, when the Heat made the games closer <15, LeBron was scoring 0.65 points a minute. This shows that he was scoring much more when the Spurs bench was in and the Heat were down 15+ and it shows that he was scoring much less when the Spurs starters were in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Since Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill (which frequently gets the big, tough buckets for teams), he's forced to rely on a predictable rim attack that gets stifled in many ways when the game gets tight (i.e. clog paint, foul, etc).. So he's more of a pure athlete than a hooper, aka he lacks great touch or moves and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kyrie, Wade or AD, while also needing perennial all-stars and franchise guys at 3rd option.

[3ba11]

I got the years wrong, not the numbers

old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the Finals for 2011, 2014 or 2017

In these years, Lebron averaged 5 ppg in the 4th just like I said, or even worse (3 ppg in 11' or 14')





Where did you get the true shooting data for Lebron's 4th quarters in the Finals?

And your numbers showed that the true shooting was close even though Lebron faced half the defensive attention as Jordan (lebron had equal-scoring partners while jordan doubled everyone's scoring in many Finals, aka all eyes on him) - so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.






.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron is a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals (Westbrook).. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever






Nothing I've said is wrong - see the above responses

Nothing that I've ever said about Lebron is wrong or exaggerated - bad fits and point guard stats (hold-time and assisted rate) confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions and is actually an abnormal ball-dominator for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles never developed a single young player into meaningful producer in 20 years (zero young player development), while also preventing elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs regardless of cast or on-paper talent advantage (preseason favorite status).

This is my thesis and you already know that each point is backed up by significant statistical proof - nothing you have ever said has refuted this or backed me off any of this - so kudos for accomplishing nothing..






Okay but Lebron only averaged between 3.0 and 7.7 in the 4th quarter of the Finals from 2011-2014 (carried compared to Jordan) and:

From BBallBreakdown on youtube:

LeBron James scored 1.1 points a minute when the Heat were getting blown out by 15+ BUT, when the Heat made the games closer <15, LeBron was scoring 0.65 points a minute. This shows that he was scoring much more when the Spurs bench was in and the Heat were down 15+ and it shows that he was scoring much less when the Spurs starters were in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Since Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill (which frequently gets the big, tough buckets for teams), he's forced to rely on a predictable rim attack that gets stifled in many ways when the game gets tight (i.e. clog paint, foul, etc).. So he's more of a pure athlete than a hooper, aka he lacks great touch or moves and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kyrie, Wade or AD, while also needing perennial all-stars and franchise guys at 3rd option.

[Phoenix]

Wow. We really do this again?!

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I got the years wrong, not the numbers

You didn’t select specific years originally. You claimed this was over the course of LeBron’s entire finals career. Keep squealing.

old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the Finals for 2011, 2014 or 2017

Already addressed, in the very post you quoted:


The whole point of examining 4th quarter statistics is that they’re supposed to shine a light on how a player did in high-leverage situations…


…which makes it patently silly to use the ‘14 and ‘17 4th quarters as proof of anything.

Most of these games weren’t close going into the fourth. LeBron’s fourth quarter play wasn’t any more consequential than his 1st-3rd quarter play.

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes.

In these years, Lebron averaged 5 ppg in the 4th just like I said, or even worse (3 ppg in 11' or 14')

Addressed already. No, you didn’t get the years confused. You didn’t pick individual years for LeBron originally.

Additionally, even this dataset is skewed, but not for the reason you think: “Old Jordan” includes ‘96, a year where PBP tracking wasn’t available. His 4th quarter stats in those finals were quite unimpressive, going off memory.

Will likely speed-watch every 4th quarter and prove it conclusively — stay tuned.

If your retort is that I’m including three 4ths (Games 4-6) in a series that was all-but-won by then, congrats: we are now on the same page about not all 4th quarters being alike.

Another free lesson, courtesy of yours truly.

Where did you get the true shooting data for Lebron's 4th quarters in the Finals?

Manually tallied them.

And your numbers showed that the true shooting was close

Indeed. Jordan had the scoring edge (though part of it is by virtue of playing more minutes on average in his 4ths, so it marginally dwindles if we’re going by per-minute), while LeBron had the efficiency and rebounding/assists edge.

even though Lebron faced half the defensive attention as Jordan (lebron had equal-scoring partners while jordan doubled everyone's scoring in many Finals, aka all eyes on him -

Literally addressed these exact words, several times now. Will include it once more:


Against the 9th and 17th ranked defences, on teams where he had ample help in the other facets of the game (defence, rebounding, playmaking) to allow him to focus on his strengths unabated.


If you want to argue the relatively uncontroversial position that Jordan is the Finals GOAT, do that. Just don’t lie and exaggerate constantly.

(Who am I kidding, please continue to do alll of the above lmao.)

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron is a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals (Westbrook).. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever

Already addressed:


Now do their rebound and assist numbers? Believe Jordan amassed a fairly modest 14 assists in 11 4th quarters.

Very unsurprisingly, you don’t round up for LeBron — his TS% was actually 55.67%.

Also, best I can tell it’s actually quite fortunate that PBP tracking started in ‘97, because Jordan was pretty statistically underwhelming in the 4th quarters of the ‘96 finals. I remember reading he scored 4 points in 16% shooting in the final three games. Perhaps I’ll have a watch some day soon and confirm.

Nothing I've said is wrong - see the above responses

Which specific, falsifiable claim have I failed to address?

Nothing that I've ever said about Lebron is wrong or exaggerated - bad fits and point guard stats (hold-time and assisted rate) confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions and is actually an abnormal ball-dominator for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles never developed a single young player into meaningful producer in 20 years (zero young player development), while also preventing elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs regardless of cast or on-paper talent advantage (preseason favorite status).

All addressed in the thread you’ve scurried away from, and all are irrelevant to the specific claims I’ve debunked in this thread. Will be sure to link the previous thread, though.

This is my thesis and you already know that each point is backed up by significant statistical proof - nothing you have ever said has refuted this or backed me off any of this - so kudos for accomplishing nothing..

Thankfully, we can verify that this is false: we have about 70 pages worth of me going line-by-line for practically every specific claim you’ve made before, to your eternal chagrin, getting the last word in…like you’ve always prided yourself on.

Please feel free to clear the backlog of posts you have yet to respond to there.

Okay but Lebron only averaged between 3.0 and 7.7 in the 4th quarter of the Finals from 2011-2014 (carried compared to Jordan) and:

…beyond addressing several of these discrepancies and being quite forthright about calling the ‘11 finals a huge legacy-dampener for LeBron…I’ve also never called him a better finals performer. These are all non-sequiturs.

Feel free to stick to the topic at hand, and address the specific counters I’ve broached.

From BBallBreakdown on youtube:

LeBron James scored 1.1 points a minute when the Heat were getting blown out by 15+ BUT, when the Heat made the games closer <15, LeBron was scoring 0.65 points a minute. This shows that he was scoring much more when the Spurs bench was in and the Heat were down 15+ and it shows that he was scoring much less when the Spurs starters were in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Since Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill (which frequently gets the big, tough buckets for teams), he's forced to rely on a predictable rim attack that gets stifled in many ways when the game gets tight (i.e. clog paint, foul, etc).. So he's more of a pure athlete than a hooper, aka he lacks great touch or moves and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kyrie, Wade or AD, while also needing perennial all-stars and franchise guys at 3rd option.

None of this is a response to the specific points I’ve made, but you can keep copy and pasting things we’ve already discussed, which are irrelevant to the thread.

[RRR3]

Wow. We really do this again?!

Until 3ball flees in terror and tries to make it look like he's just sick of arguing. We need one of those gifs you make of 3ball, this time of him running away from Peja

[Full Court]

A large chunk of these can’t even be steelmanned as choke jobs though. The run in ‘20 is Exhibit A. You’re including four flawed games in an otherwise sterling run. It’s the sort of standard that no player ought to be held to, even Jordan who had several statistical clunkers in both of his ‘92 and ‘93 runs to the title (among others), yet no one sane would contest that he was incredible both years. Same applies to ‘96 and ‘97. He was great despite two middling-to-low-efficiency series against the Sonics and Heat.

Oh it certainly can be considered a choke job. And do you see the difference between Jordan having "several statistical clunkers" and Lebron having 40 of them? You really can't deny that Lebron's had more of them than any other "all time great".

Hence the widely used nickname "LeShrivel."

Also, Jordan's "statistical clunkers" don't compare to some of Bronie's masterpieces of chokery. Did Jordan ever shoot 2-18 in a playoff game? I'm not going to bother checking all of Jordan's playoff stats, but I highly doubt it.

[Full Court]

It's so overwhelmingly funny that LeKong doesn't need to play that well just in order to attract his pathetic attention. And this has been going on for the two years and counting of his utterly useless existence in this board.

Roses scratch

Violets itch

Autistic Axe

Is a stinky bitch

[SouBeachTalents]

Oh it certainly can be considered a choke job. And do you see the difference between Jordan having "several statistical clunkers" and Lebron having 40 of them? You really can't deny that Lebron's had more of them than any other "all time great".

Hence the widely used nickname "LeShrivel."

Also, Jordan's "statistical clunkers" don't compare to some of Bronie's masterpieces of chokery. Did Jordan ever shoot 2-18 in a playoff game? I'm not going to bother checking all of Jordan's playoff stats, but I highly doubt it.

I actually already proved you wrong and showed that Bill Russell would have significantly more chokes than LeBron using your criteria.

Bill Russell’s playoff career averages are 16 ppg on 43%, which would make your list of chokes if LeBron did that in a game So yes, it’s 100% true that the majority of Russell’s playoff career would be considered a choke if we’re judging that by low ppg and poor shooting %.

[RRR3]

I actually already proved you wrong and showed that Bill Russell would have significantly more chokes than LeBron using your criteria.

Why respond seriously to someone claiming LeBron is widely called "LeShrivel". Only he says that.

[Axe]

Oh shit, Peja is online. Be prepared to see 3ball run.

[Full Court]

I actually already proved you wrong and showed that Bill Russell would have significantly more chokes than LeBron using your criteria.

Lol. You proved absolutely nothing. Bill Russell wasn't the primary scorer on his team. And 43% is still WAAAYYYYYY better than the majority of LeShrivel's choke jobs.

Nice try though, even though you failed.