Wasn't much of a difference between Andrew Toney & MJ in ability to score- Larry Bird

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/ol...michael-jordan

"To me, there wasn't much of a difference between the two when it came to the sheer ability to score. Michael has always come off more picks (until they moved him to point guard late in the 1988-89 season), whereas Andrew would just throw his guy off and go. Just when the 76ers really needed a basket is exactly when Andrew would get it," - Larry Bird

[1987_Lakers]

[RRR3]

This is why it's hilarious when people say we should take players opinions as gospel

[1987_Lakers]

3ball about to drop Bird out of his top 10.

I remember him getting super butt hurt when Duncan revealed he wasn't a big MJ fan.

[L.Kizzle]

So, is Toney better than God? Bird said MJ was God.

[SATAN]

This seems like a pretty significant revelation.

Considering Toney didn't make the NBA's top 75 or any lists at all for that matter, how does this impact MJs rankings?

[1_BAD_TIGER]

You people have no clue, Andrew Toney would be a nightmare for any current player trying to guard him.

And he would have been an all-time great, but injuries shortened his career.

[RRR3]

You people have no clue, Andrew Toney would be a nightmare for any current player trying to guard him.

I don't think anyone is denying he was a talented scorer, but saying he was the equal of the guy who pretty much everyone considers the best scorer of all time is a stretch to say the least.

[1_BAD_TIGER]

Toney was not going to be THE all time great scorer, that's for sure, but who knows how good he could have become, when he got injured just as he was entering his prime.

[1987_Lakers]

I always found it odd how nobody talks about Bill Cunningham as a coach. He was pretty successful, made 3 Finals, won one. Left at age 41 and never coached again. I know he worked for CBS after he left and I believe he called the '88 Finals with Dick Stockton, but don't know what happened to him after that.

[SATAN]

And he would have been an all-time great, but injuries shortened his career.

Excuses.

[1_BAD_TIGER]

Not an excuse, just what happened

[Kblaze8855]

This is why it's hilarious when people say we should take players opinions as gospel

first of all, even the people you see who would correctly tell you players know more about basketball than most fans obviously know that since there are thousands of players with different opinions, they can’t all be automatically right. Youre just stretching the concept to an irrational extent nobody thinks to have something to argue with.

That said….id say it’s hilarious how strong fans opinions are about people they never saw take a single jumper.

Ive heard players say he was the best player they ever guarded and Barkley had him over Moses, Kevin Johnson, and Doc as the best player he ever played with.

What Bird is saying is they’re both on the unstoppable level of scorers. It’s just not something people are prepared to accept largely because they have absolutely no information about the guy. But at the time guys would talk about Toney, Bernard King, and Jordan as people you just couldn’t keep from scoring.

It wasn’t some piece by piece Internet forum style breakdown. More like “Who can’t you stop?” and his name would come up.

people have trouble with it as they often do when the numbers don’t reflect the experience of the people having to deal with it. Especially a guy who was on loaded teams before he got hurt, and was never the focus of an offense of his own.

A guard on a team that has four Hall of Fame caliber players Including the three time MVP and Doctor J is not going to take 25 shots of game like Wilkins, or the other top scorers of the day. But the players were pretty unequivocal that he was that caliber of scorer to deal with.

if you could find guards in the 80s in those little CBS interviews and on local media talking about Other players, you would have a much better understanding of the status he had.

if they had player polls back then and the question was who can’t you stop he would be right around the top of the list.

doesn’t mean he will be ranked as the best player in the league. It’s a bit like asking all the 2000s defenders who their toughest matchup was. Like half of them are going to say Carmelo Anthony. Doesn’t mean they think he was a better player than Lebron who scored more(often at the same time as well as in total). They arent talking About what most fans are talking about when they are asked those questions and their answers might not be reflected in the stats, which are the only way fans can fight back versus hands on experience.

They’re talking about being too strong while also being too quick. They’re talking about creating space in the triple threat and too fast a release on the jumper not to honor it but first step off the pump leaving you behind. They’re talking about finishing around the basket on the catch. They’re talking about reposting deep and getting the ball back and not being able to stop him walking you down.

Fans are generally talking about shooting percentages and points scored.

It’s two entirely different conversations, and I wish that instead of fighting about it we just acknowledge that getting different answers to different questions doesn’t necessarily make us enemies.

[NBAGOAT]

first of all, even the people you see who would correctly tell you players know more about basketball than most fans obviously know that since there are thousands of players with different opinions, they can’t all be automatically right. Youre just stretching the concept to an irrational extent nobody thinks to have something to argue with.

That said….id say it’s hilarious how strong fans opinions are about people they never saw take a single jumper.

Ive heard players say he was the best player they ever guarded and Barkley had him over Moses, Kevin Johnson, and Doc as the best player he ever played with.

What Bird is saying is they’re both on the unstoppable level of scorers. It’s just not something people are prepared to accept largely because they have absolutely no information about the guy. But at the time guys would talk about Toney, Bernard King, and Jordan as people you just couldn’t keep from scoring.

It wasn’t some piece by piece Internet forum style breakdown. More like “Who can’t you stop?” and his name would come up.

people have trouble with it as they often do when the numbers don’t reflect the experience of the people having to deal with it. Especially a guy who was on loaded teams before he got hurt, and was never the focus of an offense of his own.

A guard on a team that has four Hall of Fame caliber players Including the three time MVP and Doctor J is not going to take 25 shots of game like Wilkins, or the other top scorers of the day. But the players were pretty unequivocal that he was that caliber of scorer to deal with.

if you could find guards in the 80s in those little CBS interviews and on local media talking about Other players, you would have a much better understanding of the status he had.

if they had player polls back then and the question was who can’t you stop he would be right around the top of the list.

doesn’t mean he will be ranked as the best player in the league. It’s a bit like asking all the 2000s defenders who their toughest matchup was. Like half of them are going to say Carmelo Anthony. Doesn’t mean they think he was a better player than Lebron who scored more(often at the same time as well as in total). They arent talking About what most fans are talking about when they are asked those questions and their answers might not be reflected in the stats, which are the only way fans can fight back versus hands on experience.

They’re talking about being too strong while also being too quick. They’re talking about creating space in the triple threat and too fast a release on the jumper not to honor it but first step off the pump leaving you behind. They’re talking about finishing around the basket on the catch. They’re talking about reposting deep and getting the ball back and not being able to stop him walking you down.

Fans are generally talking about shooting percentages and points scored.

It’s two entirely different conversations, and I wish that instead of fighting about it we just acknowledge that getting different answers to different questions doesn’t necessarily make us enemies.

Sometimes the question being answered is the same. Kenyon Martin straight up said Kyrie is better than Luka in that case he’s just wrong.

The players are answering a different question, I would argue that question isn’t as relevant as others. You ask any coach from that era who’s toughest to game plan for on defense there are 5-10 guys he’ll pick over melo most likely. You ask a gm from that era who he want to start a team with, he also would pick 5-10 guys over melo most likely. Those answers matter far more than the players about who’s hard to guard

[Kblaze8855]

Five seconds later, when it was pushed back on, Kenyon asked who would win one on one to 11 or whatever it was to make his point. Again, he’s not asking what you’re asking. And even if he was like I said, there are thousands of players and thousands of opinions. If it were as simple as a player said it, so it has to be true? They would all say the same thing which they obviously don’t. There isnt a single person in the world who believes that to be the case. It just gets sad all the time. It’s this arguments version of “But Horry has 7 rings”. It’s a distortion of the point to avoid the meat of the argument.

And you’re talking about who is best to start a team with and hardest the game plan against when that also isn’t the question players are answering when you ask them who is the toughest to guard.

LeBron is harder to stop being generally effective than Carmelo. LeBron is one of the best passers of his generation. He was also so fast in the open court it looks like a glitch in the matrix. But when you mentally pick apart of team by knowing their defense, and how to use your teammates so your team score more than the other team and when you leak out like a gazelle and they stop running because they know they can’t chase you? When you hit threes because they have to stand 5 feet off of you at all times to stop the drive? The players aren’t standing there thinking “I can’t guard this guy”.

They acknowledge the greatness in the total game and the intelligence. They acknowledge the overwhelming athleticism that gives you more points.

It isn’t the same as “I can’t figure out how to defend this guy”.

it’s obviously 1000 miles from a GM survey on who you build a franchise around. And by the way, in the first one, Jordan didn’t even win that. He was third behind David Robinson and Magic. He was also behind magic in the selection for most clutch.

These things change drastically through the lens of history versus what people believe at the time. When we mix both viewing through the lens of history, and the fact that players are often answering an entirely different question, because they hear the question differently, there are obvious problems on the way.