We won in spite of Jordan getting on guys - Pippen

[ImKobe]

How did Pippen sabotage that series? Wasn't it Jordan that decided to stop shooting in game 5 because the coach told him he was being selfish?

And we gonna not give Pippen any kind of slack for having a bad game when he lost his father 3 weeks before that game 7? But we excuse Jordan for retiring a few weeks before the start of the season because his dad died? Wow.

You have to understand who I'm replying to, lol. These same guys call Jordan "dad killer".

[dankok8]

I actually agree. The teams Jordan had without Pippen weren't good. But we're in Rome. And in Rome, context doesn't matter. That's why you have people knocking Pippen for not winning in 94. Or why you have people ripping Pippen for not winning in 00 at 35 years old. And you're in those chats saying the same shit against Pippen that you justify for Jordan. Those 94 and 95 teams were not good enough to win a championship and or got jobbed in 94, or Pippen while good, had too many miles and was too old in 00 to lead a team to a championship. So which one is it Dankok? Make up your mind.

Pippen wasn't good enough to lead a team to a championship as the best player but then again only twenty or so players in the 75-year history of the sport have been. It's not a slight on Pippen. Not many titles teams in league history would still win the title if you take away their best player? I think the 1994 Bulls weren't good enough to win a championship. Their win total of 55 wins (and actually 57-win pace with Pippen playing IIRC) is misleading. Their SRS which is a better predictor of team quality than W/L record was only +2.87 good for 11th in the league. They were 14th in ORtg and 6th in DRtg out of 27 teams. The Bulls overachieved in the regular season because they were motivated to prove they were still good without Jordan. And they were pretty good. Just not championship good... There is also the fact that the Bulls added Toni Kukoc in that 1993 offseason and he could have been worth a couple of wins as well. The 1993 Bulls before Jordan's retirement were sleepwalking through the regular season and still had a +6.19 SRS which was 4th in the league. 2nd in ORtg and 7th in DRtg. The 1993 Bulls were objectively a much better team than the 1994 Bulls despite comparable win totals.

You might have misunderstood some of my posts because I was responding to people who posted numbers without context. Unfortunately since this forum is full of Lebron stans, people actually perceive me as a Jordan stan which is kind of hilarious. I think Jordan is better than Lebron but I don't worship Jordan and have stated over and over that other players have GOAT cases as well. Anyways I never thought I would be defending MJ even a couple of years ago. If you check my posts from a few years ago I was a lot more pro-Lebron but then the hype train became too much and I started seeing Lebron as overrated.

Context is everything!

[3ba11]

Jordan unfairly got a bad reputation for being hard on teammates because his teammates were THAT BAD so he had to treat them like children..

He would never be that way with real players like Worthy or Kareem that didn't need to be raised like children - they dominated instead of wetting the bed with role player low production

Only Jordan had low-producing bums like Kerr, Paxson Pippen, or Cartwright that need whipping into shape - these guys were always wetting the bed and were usually bums

[97 bulls]

Jordan unfairly got a bad reputation for being hard on teammates because his teammates were THAT BAD so he had to treat them like children..

He would never be that way with real players like Worthy or Kareem that didn't need to be raised like children - they dominated instead of wetting the bed with role player low production

Only Jordan had low-producing bums like Kerr, Paxson Pippen, or Cartwright that need whipping into shape - these guys were always wetting the bed and were usually bums

Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.

[2much_knowledge]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.

Let me quote Scott Maurice

" As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. Maybe it was the pressure of the game. I wasn't myself on the basketball court. I couldn't answer the bell"

The End

[97 bulls]

Pippen wasn't good enough to lead a team to a championship as the best player but then again only twenty or so players in the 75-year history of the sport have been. It's not a slight on Pippen. Not many titles teams in league history would still win the title if you take away their best player? I think the 1994 Bulls weren't good enough to win a championship. Their win total of 55 wins (and actually 57-win pace with Pippen playing IIRC) is misleading. Their SRS which is a better predictor of team quality than W/L record was only +2.87 good for 11th in the league. They were 14th in ORtg and 6th in DRtg out of 27 teams. The Bulls overachieved in the regular season because they were motivated to prove they were still good without Jordan. And they were pretty good. Just not championship good... There is also the fact that the Bulls added Toni Kukoc in that 1993 offseason and he could have been worth a couple of wins as well. The 1993 Bulls before Jordan's retirement were sleepwalking through the regular season and still had a +6.19 SRS which was 4th in the league. 2nd in ORtg and 7th in DRtg. The 1993 Bulls were objectively a much better team than the 1994 Bulls despite comparable win totals.

You might have misunderstood some of my posts because I was responding to people who posted numbers without context. Unfortunately since this forum is full of Lebron stans, people actually perceive me as a Jordan stan which is kind of hilarious. I think Jordan is better than Lebron but I don't worship Jordan and have stated over and over that other players have GOAT cases as well. Anyways I never thought I would be defending MJ even a couple of years ago. If you check my posts from a few years ago I was a lot more pro-Lebron but then the hype train became too much and I started seeing Lebron as overrated.

Context is everything!

Context is everything. How do you know he wasn't good enough? The context has to be applied. Did he have the team? How many times did Pippen have top tier talent around him while in his prime to say what he couldn't do? Did he have a fair chance?

That's what's funny. See guys like Worthy, McHale, are ways looked at as being good enough to be the best player on a championship team, even though they never got remotely close to doing so. Pippen did.

So how are you quantifying Pippen nor being able to win a championship? Because the teams he led weren't as good as the teams Jordan led. Why didn't Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Wilkins to name a few not win a championship or win championship as the teams best player as in the case with Robinson.

You don't get to say Pippen wasn't good enough and then excuse the players I listed for not doing what Pippen wasn't able to do when those players had a whole career to win as the best player where Pippen only had 1. Truth be told, Pippen faired as well as anybody else. The only reason the 20 players you alluded to have rings is because they had one of the top 3 teams that year. Typically players aren't expected to win unless they have the most talent. Unless you're Scottie Pippen.

I mean let's be fair.

[3ba11]

Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.

We're all adults here and know the facts

Kukoc was HOF for his euro career, so you're the one lying and stretching the truth

and Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with 1 HOF and a 1st time, nobody coach - Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 90/91, while Jordan was already a goat candidate.

Those are the facts

[97 bulls]

Let me quote Scott Maurice

" As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. Maybe it was the pressure of the game. I wasn't myself on the basketball court. I couldn't answer the bell"

The End

His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.

[3ba11]

His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.

Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with a single all-star teammate and a 1st-time coach

Only the goat can do that

[97 bulls]

We're all adults here and know the facts

Kukoc was HOF for his euro career, so you're the one lying and stretching the truth

and Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with 1 HOF and a 1st time, nobody coach - Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 90/91, while Jordan was already a goat candidate.

Those are the facts

Kukoc is a hall of famer for his basketball career. Not just what he did in Europe. 3 championships, 6th man of the year.

[90sgoat]

Jordan definitely has sociopathic traits.

And Pippen is right that he was probably very important in acting as the battered wife who keeps the family together.

[outofstomach]

His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.

are you actually ****ing serious?

[outofstomach]

that has to be the absolutely most insane, brain-dead take that i have had the displeasure of reading on here, and that is definitely an accomplishment, how the **** do i block someone on here?

[Axe]

Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.

This.

[dankok8]

Context is everything. How do you know he wasn't good enough? The context has to be applied. Did he have the team? How many times did Pippen have top tier talent around him while in his prime to say what he couldn't do? Did he have a fair chance?

That's what's funny. See guys like Worthy, McHale, are ways looked at as being good enough to be the best player on a championship team, even though they never got remotely close to doing so. Pippen did.

So how are you quantifying Pippen nor being able to win a championship? Because the teams he led weren't as good as the teams Jordan led. Why didn't Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Wilkins to name a few not win a championship or win championship as the teams best player as in the case with Robinson.

You don't get to say Pippen wasn't good enough and then excuse the players I listed for not doing what Pippen wasn't able to do when those players had a whole career to win as the best player where Pippen only had 1. Truth be told, Pippen faired as well as anybody else. The only reason the 20 players you alluded to have rings is because they had one of the top 3 teams that year. Typically players aren't expected to win unless they have the most talent. Unless you're Scottie Pippen.

I mean let's be fair.

I don't think Worthy or McHale are capable of winning titles as #1 options either. I have Pippen over both of them on my all-time list. And over Nique who was basically just a scorer.

I am fair. I just honestly don't see Pippen as a #1 option type of player. You probably have to score more than 22 ppg OR be a defensive anchor i.e. defensive big like Garnett to win titles as the clear-cut best player. There are a few exceptions but generally best players on title teams are either elite offensive players or elite two-way big men. Pippen fits into neither of those molds. Pippen at his peak in 1994 in terms of impact still falls well short of guys like Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Shaq and Hakeem. Pippen and Ewing are comparable around 1994 but 1990 peak Ewing was a bit better than any version of Pippen. Ewing was so good offensively that season and couldn't really sustain it as he got older.