We won in spite of Jordan getting on guys - Pippen

[Axe]

The 2004 Pistons required Chauncey Billups to be extremely clutch and hit a ton of big shots to win FMVP (Chauncey earned clutch-related nicknames from his goat level of clutchness throughout those playoffs), so Pippen couldn't be #1 option and win with those Pistons.

However, the 2004 Pistons won with Tyshaun Prince at SF, so they can win with a ton of SF's and could probably win with Pippen, but not as 1st option because clutch is required from a champion 1st option.

And I say "probably" because Pippen was a negative in the 4th quarter and when the game was tight (clutch time), so it isn't a guarantee they could win with him.. Ultimately, it means exactly nothing to cite the most balanced team that ever won and say that Player X could've won with them.

Meanwhile, it took kobe bricking a lot of shots and being selfish that led to his team losing in the 2004 finals while they'd probably do fine without him.

[kawhileonard2]

No excuses.

LeBron had even less help in 2018 playoffs and made the finals.

Lebron had Iverson, Wade, Melo, Dwight, Duncan and got bronze medal.

Lebron with Shaq was bounced in round 2. Wade with Shaq won a title, Kobe with Shaq won 3 titles.

[97 bulls]

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.

Give the 94 Bulls an Allen Houston level SG, and he'd have a great chance at winning a championship as the best player. Replace Tayshaun Prince with prime Pippen on that 2004 team. Theh probably win 2-3 championships and are considered an all-time great team. And Pippen would be the clear cut best player.

But what I don't get is, why would you take players like Robinson and Barkley over Pippen? I mean, we saw what those two could do with a combined 20+ years leading a team to a title and they failed. What's the difference?

[dankok8]

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.

Long time no see Micku! How've you been bud?

This is what I literally said in the post after the one you quoted! Pippen could definitely win as the best player on an ensemble squad like the 2004 Pistons. However as you said, those teams are tough to construct. That's why there haven't been too many championship teams like that.

[Bawkish]

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.

I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic

[Axe]

I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic

You always think of him lmao.

[Bawkish]

You always think of him lmao.

like stalking me now?

[Micku]

Long time no see Micku! How've you been bud?

This is what I literally said in the post after the one you quoted! Pippen could definitely win as the best player on an ensemble squad like the 2004 Pistons. However as you said, those teams are tough to construct. That's why there haven't been too many championship teams like that.

Wassssup man!! I've been busy, but this Pippen thing is pretty crazy lol. I had to come over here to see what ppl were saying. I know the trolls were gonn'a go rampage and hide the actual good b-ball discussions. But I couldn't help myself.

It is good to see y'all here tho!

Give the 94 Bulls an Allen Houston level SG, and he'd have a great chance at winning a championship as the best player. Replace Tayshaun Prince with prime Pippen on that 2004 team. Theh probably win 2-3 championships and are considered an all-time great team. And Pippen would be the clear cut best player.

But what I don't get is, why would you take players like Robinson and Barkley over Pippen? I mean, we saw what those two could do with a combined 20+ years leading a team to a title and they failed. What's the difference?

Better numbers. Better impact. They are more proven as the number 1 guy, tho not of Pippen's didn't get enough seasons to prove it. Although they didn't win a chip either as the number 1 and Barkley didn't win any at all. It indicates that Pippen as the number 1 guy it would be just as or more difficult...at least to me. However it depends on the team construction. It's not impossible. The Bulls were an amazing team, even without MJ. It wasn't always the case tho.

Give Pippen a solid team at his very peak, then I think they could be a championship contender for sure. Would they win it? I dunno about that. Hard to say. But the same thing with the other stars with better numbers too. Could they get to the finals? It's possible. Like the Bulls nearly beat the Knicks in 94. Should've beat the Knicks. But even if they beat the Knicks, would they beat the Pacers? While you may say the Bulls beat'em in the RS 3-1, the Knicks swept the pacers too. And they still went seven games.

And the Bulls had a losing record 1-3 against the knicks in 94, but could've beaten them.

So who knows. But given that Ewing went to the finals, and took the Bulls when they had MJ, Pippen and Grant to the brick, a peak Ewing would've been a easier piece to build around as well.

But do you see what I'm doing? It's a dance that could go back and forward with a bunch of players. It just all depends on the team. A bunch of what ifs too and a bit of luck.

Without MJ, Pippen would've been similar as those guys. With Barkley in his case, he ran into the Bulls where MJ averaged 41 ppg. Like who does that? Nobody in the history of the league ever did that before or since. Granted, they never got back there, but it happens in sports. That was their peak. David Robinson ran into Hakeem at his peak, but David Robinson always underperforms in the playoffs. So you got that argument.

It is unknown whatever Pippen could've done any better as the guy if he had to lead the rest of his career. But if we were to assume if Pippen continued to play like he did in 94 continuously, it would be something to see. I still don't know and I personally doubt he would've won. But without MJ, it's pretty much anybody's game.

[Micku]

I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic

Hahaha yeah.

Nobody respects Pippen like a superstar like that. At least his peers it seems. lol
Like Zeke don't believe Pippen was on his lvl. Shaq of course. I think CWebb don't think so either. Reggie Miller. I think the whole crew didn't think Pippen was on Grant Hill's lvl. Ernie even made a joke about it.

But especially Zeke. He mentioned that he could understand if MJ didn't want him on the dream team. But Pippen had no right to talk. lol!

It would appear only the Bulls teammates respect Pippen more so than the players outside of the team. And John Sally lol. I think he said he thinks Pippen is better than MJ, then the interviewer laughed and was like, "Naw, you don't believe that. That's the detriot in you coming out," and he laughed said there is some truth to that I think.

They all acknowledge that Pippen is a good player tho. But they don't think he is that guy tho. Like he don't get the respect similar to the other sidekicks along with the stars. Like Mchale/Bird, Magic/Kareem, Wade/LeBron, Curry/KD, and especially Shaq/Kobe.

I personally think Ewing is pretty underrated and Joe Dumars. Dwight Howard is underrated too given the top 75 and he is not on it.

Pippen is overrated or underrated depending who you talk to. But I think his peers don't think he is that dude. Current gen don't respect Pippen as much either. Especially KD, although KD was bit sensitive. But Pippen thinks he is just as good as KD..hahah.

But y'know who did respect Pippen a lot? Kobe. He loved watching him play defense. He once invited Kayne West to play ball or whatever. But instead of playing ball, they watched Pippen tapes. Kobe loved watching Pippen play defense. He thought it was unreal how much ground he would cover. He even have a video of his detailed series just on Pippen. And even he wouldn't think Pippen was good or as important as MJ.

Everybody studies MJ or Kobe tho. They both had very similar games. KD mentions watching MJ play defense too, he found it amazing on his timing and his reflexes. Everyone who watch him play d mentions that. And he was like, "No wonder why they call him the black cat."

Pippen never got that respect tho even though he was amazing defensively. Other ppl do acknowledge it and I think his defense got more acknowledge over time. However I just feel him releasing a book talking about MJ and sort'a comparing himself to him is a bad idea to convince the masses and the peers. They would never consider him to be as important or just as good as MJ. MJ is MJ man. He has the stats, accomplishments, the moves, and the popularity. Made the league a lot of money.

[getting_old]

there were 3 championship rosters with a manic driven star and a 2nd that didn't quite care enough to reach his potential, for which the dominant was vocal in his concerns

Bird - McHale
Jordan - Pippen
Kobe - Shaq

Magic was kind of like the less-driven role, he couldn't bother to work on a decent jump shot, the exception to the rule, and KA-J wasn't publicly motivated enough to badmouth his teammate, not that he was a nice guy....

[expansionera]

Pippen was the locker room leader and captain of the team, Jordan—much like Wilt Chamberlain before him—chased statistical accolades over any sort of team success.

[97 bulls]

Pippen was the locker room leader and captain of the team, Jordan—much like Wilt Chamberlain before him—chased statistical accolades over any sort of team success.

Bingo@!!!!!

Pippen has always been a team first guy. Winning a championship requires far more than just being talented.

Shaq and MJ could run roughshod over the league. But how long until one or the other developes an issue with their role? Like Kobe did.

Put Shaq and Jordan on the same team, for 20 years and an age difference of a couple years and one or the other is no longer looked at the same way.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen being overrated by the same clueless posters.



If you put Shaq and Jordan together, they would completely annhilate the league. Pippen's 'leadership' was nothing more than being a reliable sidekick. Period. He was and has always been jealous of Mike.

[97 bulls]

Pippen being overrated by the same clueless posters.



If you put Shaq and Jordan together, they would completely annhilate the league. Pippen's 'leadership' was nothing more than being a reliable sidekick. Period. He was and has always been jealous of Mike.

Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.

But here's where the comprehension come in. I said Shaq and Jordan would run roughshod over the league. But what I also said was how long would one be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for team success and watch as the other gets all the credit before he wants to break off and do his own thing like Kobe did. No other dynasty can say that their two best players shared their primes together and stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen.

Again, why did Kobe leave?

Why did Durant leave?

Why did Irving leave?

And let's be honest, by all accounts, Jordan was a terrible teammate. He all but admitted it. It takes a special type of player to be good enough to do what Pippen did in Jordan's hiatus and be willing to take a backseat his whole career. And be willing to stand beside him while he behaved the way he did.

If either Shaq or Jordan is forced to play behind the other all their career, they wouldn't be looked at as we see then today. Kobe was not nearly as respected for his role in winning those 3 championships with Shaq as he was for winning those two. If anything Gasol saved Bryant's legacy. Because the Lakers were looked at as a joke before Gasol came. That's why Bryant publicly demanded a trade. Let's stop with the revisionist history.

[ShawkFactory]

Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.

The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.

He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.