We won in spite of Jordan getting on guys - Pippen

[TheCorporation]

1994 Pippen would have won a championship with Demar Derozan in place of Pete Myers whereas Jordan had Oakley and Woolridge and could not win a fu**ing playoff game

Jordan needs Pippen. Pippen needs Derozan.

[Micku]

Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.

The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.

He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.

Eh...it depends on who you talk to. He was pretty harsh on his teammates and a jerk. But they did say, "I guess it worked," as mentioned in the documentary.

Another former teammate, Will Perdue, didn't mince words when recalling what it was like to practice with Jordan: "Let's not get it wrong, he was an asshole. He was a jerk. He crossed the line numerous times. But as time goes on, and you think back about what he was actually trying to accomplish, you were like, Yeah, he was a hell of a teammate."

Ultimately, "he was pushing us all to be better because he wanted to win," said Bill Wennington, who played with Jordan and the Bulls from 1993-1999. "And guess what. It worked."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/17/mich...it-helped.html

But Kobe did something similar to MJ. Pretty much cut from the same cloth, but it seems like MJ was a bit harsher? But maybe it's not as publicized?

Shaq yelled at his teammates and belittle sometimes, to get them fired up. Got into a fight with Kobe. Rodman said that environment was worse than all of his previous teams if I can recall.

Kenny told stories about those Rockets team did something similar.

Even Magic yelled at his teammates, and I think the Celts mentioned how they preferred how Bird lead.

And you have Jimmy Butler now lol.

It just depends. Either or, you need a solid team to really do it. And you have to give credit to Pippen. It seemed he was a very good leader with the Bulls squad. But he even had his up and downs. Especially with the refusal to come to the game when he couldn't take the last shot. And it didn't carry over with the Rockets, but it be like that sometimes. But if you look at all the quotes, even before the last dance, lots of ppl call Pippen their favorite teammate. When MJ would belittle the teammates, Pippen would pick them back up and say, "Don't worry about that. You're okay. Don't listen to him."

There are different ways to lead. But it also depends on the personality of the team as well. Sometimes the way MJ leads won't be as effective with some other players. Barkley mentioned that he knew what teammate to yell at and get them fired up and what teammate not to. Shaq was the same way. But sometimes they just fall within that trap. Some players play better mad, some do not.

[Axe]

Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.

And they're saying the 90s were basically a weak and watered-down era. 😒

[97 bulls]

Eh...it depends on who you talk to. He was pretty harsh on his teammates and a jerk. But they did say, "I guess it worked," as mentioned in the documentary.





https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/17/mich...it-helped.html

But Kobe did something similar to MJ. Pretty much cut from the same cloth, but it seems like MJ was a bit harsher? But maybe it's not as publicized?

Shaq yelled at his teammates and belittle sometimes, to get them fired up. Got into a fight with Kobe. Rodman said that environment was worse than all of his previous teams if I can recall.

Kenny told stories about those Rockets team did something similar.

Even Magic yelled at his teammates, and I think the Celts mentioned how they preferred how Bird lead.

And you have Jimmy Butler now lol.

It just depends. Either or, you need a solid team to really do it. And you have to give credit to Pippen. It seemed he was a very good leader with the Bulls squad. But he even had his up and downs. Especially with the refusal to come to the game when he couldn't take the last shot. And it didn't carry over with the Rockets, but it be like that sometimes. But if you look at all the quotes, even before the last dance, lots of ppl call Pippen their favorite teammate. When MJ would belittle the teammates, Pippen would pick them back up and say, "Don't worry about that. You're okay. Don't listen to him."

There are different ways to lead. But it also depends on the personality of the team as well. Sometimes the way MJ leads won't be as effective with some other players. Barkley mentioned that he knew what teammate to yell at and get them fired up and what teammate not to. Shaq was the same way. But sometimes they just fall within that trap. Some players play better mad, some do not.

But the funny thing is Micku, I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate Shaq and Kobe and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.

What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.

[1987_Lakers]

But the funny thing is Micku, I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate Shaq and Kobe and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.

What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.

lol, there is a bunch of stuff out there on Kobe being a douche to his teammates. And given Shaq's petty personality it wouldn't surprise me at all if he mistreated teammates, especially in his younger days.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.

But here's where the comprehension come in. I said Shaq and Jordan would run roughshod over the league. But what I also said was how long would one be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for team success and watch as the other gets all the credit before he wants to break off and do his own thing like Kobe did. No other dynasty can say that their two best players shared their primes together and stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen.

You're repeating the same talking points, and they're still moot. Chicago would dominate even more with Shaq. Remove Pippen's poor postseason shooting, and the second 3-peat Bulls would look unbeatable against Utah and Indiana.

Pippen was always envious, but also passive aggressive and could never stand up to Mike. What exposed him are his actions. The truth is, he wasn't a leader. Scottie Pippen was always about Scottie Pippen, and did whatever it took to get out of Jordan's shadow. Whatever his skillset allowed anyway.

Shaq and Jordan would've bumped heads, sure. Both have sky high egos. But they would have been so dominate it wouldn't matter. Shaq has ALWAYS respected Mike and views him as an elder statesman. An original. The two would've lasted longer than Kobe/Shaq and unlike Pippen, Shaq could command double and triple teams. Imagine freeing up Michael Jordan for easier baskets. Yeah...frightening.

And let's be honest, by all accounts, Jordan was a terrible teammate. He all but admitted it. It takes a special type of player to be good enough to do what Pippen did in Jordan's hiatus and be willing to take a backseat his whole career. And be willing to stand beside him while he behaved the way he did.

MJ led the Bulls to 6 rings. You don't do that being a 'terrible' teammate. Mike led with Pippen literally jealous of his success throughout. If anything, it speaks to great leadership.

That's the honest take here. Not some lip service, revisionist history bulljive.

[Hey Yo]

No chance MJ would share the scoring with Shaq. He'd expect him to strictly concentrate on rebounding and defense, just as Rodman's role was.

[3ba11]

Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.

The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.

He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.

Pippen averaged 8 ppg in 1988, which cost the Bulls the title - ditto Horace

It wasn't much better in 89' or 90'

These guys were bums that MJ had to curse, scrape, prod, and cajole into being just solid producers - he was never able to get them to juggernaut, elite-producing status... because again, they started out as bums - they weren't good right away like Worthy or Nique', who Jordan would never need to lose his temper with.. Heck, in Worthy's first Playoffs, he averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals.

[97 bulls]

lol, there is a bunch of stuff out there on Kobe being a douche to his teammates. And given Shaq's petty personality it wouldn't surprise me at all if he mistreated teammates, especially in his younger days.

Really? Show me. Again, not saying Kobe and others weren't confrontational. But show me where the players mentioned had behaviors anywhere near Jordan.

[Hey Yo]

Smush Parker:

"He told me one day at practice – I tried to talk to him (Kobe) outside of basketball, about football. And he looked at me in practice and was dead serious and said, ‘You can’t talk to me. You need more accolades under your belt before you come talk to me.'"

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish...uring-practice

[3ba11]

Really? Show me. Again, not saying Kobe and others weren't confrontational. But show me where the players mentioned had behaviors anywhere near Jordan.

Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace

I'll wait

The reality is that only MJ had to actually make teammates better to win

And that was the narrative at the time - the term "elevate teammates" began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen averaged 8 ppg in 1988, which cost the Bulls the title - ditto Horace

It wasn't much better in 89' or 90'

These guys were bums that MJ had to curse, scrape, prod, and cajole into being just solid producers - he was never able to get them to juggernaut, elite-producing status... because again, they started out as bums - they weren't good right away like Worthy or Nique', who Jordan would never need to lose his temper with.. Heck, in Worthy's first Playoffs, he averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals.

It’s so weird how you just forget how basketball, and life, works sometimes.

[3ba11]

It’s so weird how you just forget how basketball, and life, works sometimes.

Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace

I'll wait

The reality is that only MJ had to actually make teammates better to win, while everyone else had ready-made stars that were great right away.. Heck, Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals and it was his first playoffs!!

The term "elevate teammates" infact began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it

[ShawkFactory]

Are you really trying to say that people don’t sometimes score less as rookies/sophomores than they do when they’re in their primes?

And if so, are you saying Jordan is the only one who is able to have teammates improve as they gain experience?

[fsvr54]

People who hate on Jordan are just flat out weird.