Consistent GOAT criteria

[basketballcat]

Yeah but it's also painfully obvious how you had to omit a certain criteria in your own op where you already know that he tops amongst the atgs.

I troll about him because he has immature fans who are bran-hating retards but you can't deny that the bald one still has an unrivalled total of six finals mvps; only king kong lebron comes second with four (although he got one of them during the 2020 disney bubble).

Let's not forget when the The Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award was first given out.

[3ba11]

Oh, let's have a look see. In the 96 Finals, Pippen led the Bulls in assists, steals, and blocks. Rodman had absurd rebound numbers. Must be nice to have all the other aspects of the game taken care of. Of course, Jordan led the Bulls ... in turnovers.

1-9

Actually, Kemp had equal or better production than Jordan.
points: 23.3 Kemp, 27.3 Jordan
rebounds: 10.0 Kemp, 5.3 Jordan
assists: 2.2 Kemp, 4.2 Jordan
steals: 1.0 Kemp, 1.7 Jordan
blocks: 2.0 Kemp, 0.2 Jordan
FG%: 55.1% Kemp, 41.5% Jordan (yikes! )

Career Finals


Lebron...... 28 on 49%
Kyrie....'.... 28 on 47%
AD............ 25 on 57%

MJ............. 34 on 48%
Pippen....... 19 on 42%

Only Lebron's sidekicks destroyed league MVP's like Curry, Dirk or Jokic

People don't realize that Lebron and Magic are passers that need dominant scorers like Kareem, AD, Wade and Kyrie to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11, 16', 20')

Otoh, expert jumpshooters and great scorers can win with less help and secondary producers at sidekick like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Lowry, Pau, or Klay

[Axe]

That wasn't my point tho.

I was talking about who's gotten the most of them, not anything else. Might as well say that the asg trophy was named under kobe bryant as well (for obvious reasons) if that's the case.

[Axe]

Career Finals


Lebron...... 28 on 49%
Kyrie....'.... 25 on 57%
AD............ 25 on 57%

MJ............. 34 on 48%
Pippen....... 19 on 42%

Only Lebron's sidekicks destroyed league MVP's like Curry, Dirk or Jokic

People don't realize that Lebron and Magic are passers that need dominant scorers like Kareem, AD, Wade and Kyrie to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11, 16', 20')

1-9

[3ba11]

1-9

You quoted the wrong numbers because Kyrie's Finals average is the same as Lebron (28)

Lebron is a passer like Magic that needs great scoring to pass too.. Otoh, a great scorer like Kobe didn't need any passing help, while MJ needed the least among 90's 1st options

And show me where Lebron has examples of teammate development into significant contributors, or good chemistry, or high strategic capacity (#1 offense or high-assist team)??.. That's why he needs so much help... His abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that stalls development, fits or strategic capacity/coaching.

[basketballcat]

Career Finals


Lebron...... 28 on 49%
Kyrie....'.... 28 on 47%
AD............ 25 on 57%

MJ............. 34 on 48%
Pippen....... 19 on 42%

Only Lebron's sidekicks destroyed league MVP's like Curry, Dirk or Jokic

People don't realize that Lebron and Magic are passers that need dominant scorers like Kareem, AD, Wade and Kyrie to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11, 16', 20')

Otoh, expert jumpshooters and great scorers can win with less help and secondary producers at sidekick like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Lowry, Pau, or Klay

I like how you pretend like rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, and turnovers somehow don't exist.

[Da_Realist]

Going by stats, 1988 MJ might be considered the most dominant force in the modern era. But that wasn't even the best version of MJ. Winning basketball doesn't mean be the most productive you can be. MJ was absolutely more dominant with less stats. Calculator boys can't understand that. They see unimpressive numbers and assume he was unimpressive without taking into account that great players routinely pull back in order to build chemistry and win. More dominant with less production. That's why it's hard for calculator boys to understand when all they have are stat sheets 30 years later.

Didn't do doesn't not mean couldn't do. MJ could have gotten more rebounds and more assists. He didn't. They won the way he did it. 6 titles. Which is something everyone has been chasing ever since. LeBron tries to be as productive as possible and it has gotten him a lot of career stats and a lot of calculator fanboys. But he hasn't won as much despite hopping around and teaming up with the best players in the league. He has not built any team from the ground up. He has not maintained any chemistry. He forms teams like Voltron and when they get figured out, he runs away to form another Voltron. It is impossible to build a dynasty when one player wants to be as stat productive as possible.

And then my own personal opinion... LeBron's game is boring precisely because he controls every possession. Boring watching him pound the ball for 20 secs before passing to someone at the 3pt line. There is not as much cutting or five man chemistry. That's my own personal preference but I believe his style of play has cratered national interest. Basketball is no longer must watch tv. No one talks about it the next day. Maybe they're too busy perusing over the stat sheet with their morning coffee. But the game is not interesting at all. What are the ratings for LeBron games like? MJ's Bulls were must watch tv. Kobe Shaq must watch. Curry's Warriors must watch. I don't believe anyone cancels plans to see LeBron grab 8 uncontested rebounds that fell in his lap. Or watch him resting past the 3pt line when he doesn't have the ball. Maybe the ratings will prove me wrong.

[basketballcat]

Going by stats, 1988 MJ might be considered the most dominant force in the modern era. But that wasn't even the best version of MJ. Winning basketball doesn't mean be the most productive you can be. MJ was absolutely more dominant with less stats. Calculator boys can't understand that. They see unimpressive numbers and assume he was unimpressive without taking into account that great players routinely pull back in order to build chemistry and win. More dominant with less production. That's why it's hard for calculator boys to understand when all they have are stat sheets 30 years later.

Didn't do doesn't not mean couldn't do. MJ could have gotten more rebounds and more assists. He didn't. They won the way he did it. 6 titles. Which is something everyone has been chasing ever since. LeBron tries to be as productive as possible and it has gotten him a lot of career stats and a lot of calculator fanboys. But he hasn't won as much despite hopping around and teaming up with the best players in the league. He has not built any team from the ground up. He has not maintained any chemistry. He forms teams like Voltron and when they get figured out, he runs away to form another Voltron. It is impossible to build a dynasty when one player wants to be as stat productive as possible.

And then my own personal opinion... LeBron's game is boring precisely because he controls every possession. Boring watching him pound the ball for 20 secs before passing to someone at the 3pt line. There is not as much cutting or five man chemistry. That's my own personal preference but I believe his style of play has cratered national interest. Basketball is no longer must watch tv. No one talks about it the next day. Maybe they're too busy perusing over the stat sheet with their morning coffee. But the game is not interesting at all. What are the ratings for LeBron games like? MJ's Bulls were must watch tv. Kobe Shaq must watch. Curry's Warriors must watch. I don't believe anyone cancels plans to see LeBron grab 8 uncontested rebounds that fell in his lap. Or watch him resting past the 3pt line when he doesn't have the ball. Maybe the ratings will prove me wrong.

Lots of words, very little numbers. But appreciate you making the effort to actually walk us through your thought process.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Da Realist - Very well said, and spot on. There's a reason the 2020 NBA Finals was the all-time lowest watched series as most people considered it scrimmage play (no home fans, no travel). On top of that the Lakers & Clippers had agreed with a month to go that they'd "leave to go protest"...then they were told "you won't get paid if you don't stay". So basically you had a bunch of multi-millionaire young black men stuck at Walt Disney world and wanted to go. Hell Skip to my Lou wasn't allowed back due to going out and getting chicken wings. Which is why 2020 has the biggest * of any finals ever.
Now compare that to the highest rated ever, the 1998 finals. There's a reason everyone watched - I was almost 25 and watched it live - breathtaking stuff.

3ball - don't waste your time with "basketball stat" - he's a LeGED homer with selective reasoning that is flawed. I'm sure he's an 18 year old kid that believes everything FS1 (Nick Wright / Shannon Sharpe) tell him.

[basketballcat]

Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4.

---------

Is the Earth flat?

Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. Put your measurement instruments away, nerd."

[Axe]

TheGoatest aka expansionera is officially back, guys...

[Full Court]

Bottom line: GOAT is completely subjective. Everyone has their own criteria. Everyone weights their criteria differently based on how they arbitrarily decide to do it. There is not, and never will be, consistent GOAT criteria.


That said, Jordan has been the consensus GOAT by overwhelming majority for decades, and he still is. Deal with it.

[Da_Realist]

Da Realist - Very well said, and spot on. There's a reason the 2020 NBA Finals was the all-time lowest watched series as most people considered it scrimmage play (no home fans, no travel). On top of that the Lakers & Clippers had agreed with a month to go that they'd "leave to go protest"...then they were told "you won't get paid if you don't stay". So basically you had a bunch of multi-millionaire young black men stuck at Walt Disney world and wanted to go. Hell Skip to my Lou wasn't allowed back due to going out and getting chicken wings. Which is why 2020 has the biggest * of any finals ever.
Now compare that to the highest rated ever, the 1998 finals. There's a reason everyone watched - I was almost 25 and watched it live - breathtaking stuff.

3ball - don't waste your time with "basketball stat" - he's a LeGED homer with selective reasoning that is flawed. I'm sure he's an 18 year old kid that believes everything FS1 (Nick Wright / Shannon Sharpe) tell him.

The 2020 Finals...with no home crowds and partial teams played months after stopping the season... ehh... Lakers wouldn't have won sh*t without stopping the momentum of the season and giving them months to recuperate.

The reason 1998 was exciting was because the ride was almost over and everyone was wondering if we'd ever see someone knock MJ off the throne. It was built on the back of a decade of the Bulls knocking off all challengers. One loss would ruin the perfect picture. One more win would top Magic's five championships of the 80's. The 98 team was by far the most vulnerable both physically and in terms of team chemistry. Pippen missed much of the season. Rodman was starting to be distracted. They got rid of Jason Caffey. They let Brian Williams go. But MJ was there every game yet because of this he was a little worn by the time the playoffs rolled around. No load management at 35 years old. We saw him squeeze everything out over the season and wondered if he had more to give in the playoffs. They were less than a quarter away from being knocked out by the Pacers. Then they faced a repeat challenger for the first time but this time without homecourt advantage. We wondered, what more could MJ do? He had the sick game the year before. How could he top that? We got our answer in Game 6. Pippen was hurt and MJ needing to carry the load again. Doing what was needed to keep the team close through 3 and a half quarters. Then he closed out the series in epic fashion. Everyone saw it and was amazed. I don't believe anyone cared what the stat sheet showed because we saw him leave his heart on the floor. That was it. MJ died that day with his arms raised holding up 6 fingers. The guy that came back to play for the Wizards a couple of years later wasn't the real MJ. He was Rakim in the late 90's -- a little past his time. Looked like him, played like some version of him but wasn't really him.

Only when that memory dies along with all the people that watched it does LeBron and his stat nerds have a fair chance to change the narrative.

[basketballcat]

Let's have a look at two popular narratives:
1. 90s was physical, not much fouls called
2. LeBron flops to get calls

Let's look at 98 & 2020 Finals, specifically FTA.

Jordan 70
Malone 38

LeBron 42
Butlet 53

Oh dear me, facts don't fit the narratives.

Quick, eye test! For the love of God, eye test!

[Full Court]

Let's have a look at two popular narratives:
1. 90s was physical, not much fouls called
2. LeBron flops to get calls

Let's look at 98 & 2020 Finals, specifically FTA.

Jordan 70
Malone 38

LeBron 42
Butlet 53

Oh dear me, facts don't fit the narratives.

Quick, eye test! For the love of God, eye test!

Inside the mind of a Bronie fluffer: "Bu-bu-bu-but Jordan CAN'T be the GOAT be-be-be-because he shot more free throws than Malone!!!!"

So much desperation.