Most guys in 90s had Stockton > Isiah, so Stockton/Malone is like having Isiah/Duncan

[bison]

plus a better producer than Klay at 3rd option (Hornacek), while also having a good defensive cast of Ostertag, Russell, and Shandon Anderson (in addition to all-defenders Stockton & Malone).

so the 98' Jazz were stacked, which is why they "gentlemen" swept Popovich/Duncan/Robinson and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1nl5hzIYWP4?app=desktop

AND you're telling me Jordan beat these guys TWICE? In a row??

Basically Jordan had steep competitions in each of his finals run and did what Lebron did in 2016 but multiplied by six.

[Phoenix]

Tbf this applies to virtually everything OP says, both never hearing it said in person and it being one of the least true things ever said.

The most talked about PGs to my memory in the early 90s after Magic was like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson. Everyone on the playground was trying the Utep 2step. People knew what Stockton was doing but like Kblaze said, there's extreme revisionist history that 'most' or even 'many' though he was better than Isiah unless you're talking about his last few seasons, or even generally recognized as the best PG at that time. You'd hear his name drop sometimes but Tim Hardaway and KJ doing like 22/11 on their teams was very much a part of those conversations. And as I've said here a few times, there was a short window of time where I'd take Mark Price over Stockton. If one were a 90s Bulls fan you were acutely aware of what a giant pain in the ass he was with those Cavs teams.

[SouBeachTalents]

The most talked about PGs to my memory in the early 90s after Magic was like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson. Everyone on the playground was trying the Utep 2step. People knew what Stockton was doing but like Kblaze said, there's extreme revisionist history that 'most' or even 'many' though he was better than Isiah unless you're talking about his last few seasons, or even generally recognized as the best PG at that time. You'd hear his name drop sometimes but Tim Hardaway and KJ doing like 22/11 on their teams was very much a part of those conversations. And as I've said here a few times, there was a short window of time where I'd take Mark Price over Stockton. If one were a 90s Bulls fan you were acutely aware of what a giant pain in the ass he was with those Cavs teams.

You'd even have Penny & Payton thrown in there too.

[Phoenix]

You'd even have Penny & Payton thrown in there too.

Yes, moreso mid 90s when they entered that conversation but that taps into what I was saying on the first page. Magic and Isiah were better in the 80s. Magic retires in 91, and Isiah falls off from injury, so you'd think Stockton becomes the consensus best PG now, right? Nope, Tim Hardaway and KJ enter that conversation. Mark Price is first team all-nba over prime Stock in 93. Jordan is then out of the league and opens up a space for Stock on the first team in 94 and 95. Penny leaps to first team in 95. But then in 96, MJ is back and Penny has his best year so they're now the clear first team guards, with Payton right behind them. Kidd enters the league in 94 and is first team within 5 years. Stockton had a couple seasons where he was 'arguably' the best PG but he never had the position on lockdown. It wasn't like Magic, Jordan, Bird etc where they were the consensus best at their positions during their primes/peaks. You could probably say he was arguably the best in like 94 with Magic out, Isiah retiring, IIRC Hardaway was out, Price fell off from injury, Penny was a rookie etc etc. But even KJ had a case in 94, especially when you look at his playoff performance.

[Axe]

2 rings > 0 rings

Bird missed the '89 season.

[Full Court]

^Stinky Bitch Tits making a low IQ post. Go figure.


What a stinky idiot.

[3ba11]

Im not Entirely sure I’ve ever heard anyone say out loud they thought Stockton was better than Isiah. I’ve read it on the Internet, but I’ve never heard those words. Whatever the truth of it is the idea that most thought it in the 90s is on the short list of the least true things you’ve ever said. And that’s saying something.

In the 90's, when people were asked who the greatest point guards ever were, the standard answer was "Magic, Isiah, Stockton".. Stockton was often mentioned ahead of Isiah, but they were all mentioned in the same breath... Meanwhile, Stockton was All-NBA and All-defense from 88-92', while Isiah was neither.. So again, Stockton was generally considered better.. He also outplayed Isiah against the same comp in 1988 (see next post below).

[3ba11]

.





^^^^ Stockton was the best player in the series:

Gamescore in 88' WCSF

Stockton'.... 24.5
Malone'...... 19.4
Magic'........ 17.1
Scot't......... 14.8
Worthy....... 14.6


Stats

Stockton'.... 19 ppg... 16 apg... 4.0 spg
Magic......... 18 ppg... 10 apg... 1.0 spg

* Isiah averaged 19.7 ppg and 9 apg with 2.9 spg against the Lakers in the Finals.

Again, Stockton/Malone was like having Isiah/Duncan

[1987_Lakers]

.




^^^^ Stockton was the best player in the series:

Gamescore in 88' WCSF

Stockton'.... 24.5
Malone'...... 19.4
Magic'........ 17.1
Scot't......... 14.8
Worthy....... 14.6


Stats

Stockton'.... 19 ppg... 16 apg... 4.0 spg
Magic......... 18 ppg... 10 apg... 1.0 spg

* Isiah averaged 19.7 ppg and 9 apg with 2.9 spg against the Lakers in the Finals.

Again, Stockton/Malone was like having Isiah/Duncan

Even this argument is flawed because Stockton was not the player he was in '88-'92 compared to 1997 & 1998 when he faced the Bulls. He was past his prime. Wasn't even an All-star in '98.

[3ba11]

Even this argument is flawed because Stockton was not the player he was in '88-'92 compared to 1997 & 1998 when he faced the Bulls. He was past his prime. Wasn't even an All-star in '98.

98' Stockton was just like 90' Isiah because they were both in the later stage of their career and not as highly-regarded by the media (less media accolade).. But Stockton was still dominant in the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals.. Stockton was also still playing great at 40 years old and cooking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis for example.

So the point remains that everyone in the 90's said that Magic/Stockton/Isiah were the top 3 PG's ever - they were all mentioned in the same breath, ALL THE TIME, as a standard - they were 3 peas in a pod.

So again, Stockton/Malone was like Isiah/Duncan... There's a reason that the Jazz could destroy Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers or Popovich/Duncan/Robinson - it's because they had a goat PG and a goat PF on the same team..

[Phoenix]

98' Stockton was just like 90' Isiah because they were both in the later stage of their career and not as highly-regarded by the media (less media accolade).. But Stockton was still dominant in the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals.. Stockton was also still playing great at 40 years old and cooking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis for example.

So the point remains that everyone in the 90's said that Magic/Stockton/Isiah were the top 3 PG's ever - they were all mentioned in the same breath, ALL THE TIME, as a standard - they were 3 peas in a pod.

So again, Stockton/Malone was like Isiah/Duncan... There's a reason that the Jazz could destroy Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers or Popovich/Duncan/Robinson - it's because they had a goat PG and a goat PF on the same team..

You really think you're saying this shit around mostly a bunch of zoomers, don't you (well maybe you are, but some of us weren't born in 2000)? Isiah being 'less regarded' by the media in 1990 had nothing to do with his on-court play as I said above. He was blacklisted after the 'Bird would just be another good black player' comment. 1990 was 28-29 year old prime Isiah averaging 18/9/4/2 on 37mpg during the season, 21/8/6/2 in the playoffs, and winning the finals MVP averaging 28/7/5/2. His 1990 season numbers were par with his career averages. He didn't just drop from first team all-nba in 1987 to not even being able to crack the third team by 1990 because he was worse. You're really trying to tell me that he was less deserving of third team than his own teammate Joe Dumars that year? The only reason Isiah was in the 'later stages' of his career in 1990 was because he retired form injury in 1994. Nobody looked at him that year winning finals MVP and said 'oh yeah, it's time to put this guy out to pasture'. The fact that his exclusion off the 92 Dream Team in favor or Stockton due to 'reasons' is still a point of contention 33 years later is precisely because in a vacuum, going back to 1990 or 91 when these teams were being picked Isiah would have been the logical choice after Magic. Nobody was looking at Stockton averaging 17/14 going out in the first round and saying 'oh yeah, let's take this dude over the guy who just won finals MVP'.

Stockton in 1998 was 36 and VERY clearly on the downside of his career based on what he was doing on the floor, not politics. He was still very good and steady, but he had been passed by at this stage by guys like Payton and Kidd coming onto the scene. Tim Hardaway was 4th in MVP and first team all-NBA in 97. 98 Stockton wasn't an all-star, wasn't an all-NBA selection and averaging 12/9 playing 29mpg by this point, light-years away from his 17/14 production peaks. What you are actually arguing in both cases here, is that 1990 MJ couldn't get past a team whose best player wasn't all-NBA level, and in 1998 he beat a team who's 2nd best player wasn't even an all-star or all-nba player that year. Are these hills you wish to die on? Even if he was 'dominant' in the 97 WCFs, why wasn't he in the finals? You can't just chalk it up to the Bulls defense because that same defense allowed Mookie Blaylock to go off for 21/7/6 58% TS in the 2nd round and Rod Strickland to go off for 20/6/8 ( albeit on 49% TS) in the first. Hardaway struggled in the conference finals averaging 17/5/6 on 49% TS, but overall half of the PGs who would be considered worse played better against Chicago that playoff run. It's even worse in 98 when Sherman freakin Douglas can drop 18/8 57% on the Bulls in the first round and you have to round up to get Stockton to 10ppg. Dude started off Game 1 with 24 points and never sniffed a double digit game again until a whopping 10 points on 4/10 shooting in game 6. And that was the biggest reason why Utah couldn't get over the hump, whether Jordan was in the finals or not. For all of Stocktons floor general-ship in terms of running an offense, his lack of takeover scoring ability( something you value except for the purpose of this conversation), probably cost them at least one title. Frankly, the Bulls in 98 were vulnerable. Indiana had just taken them to 7. They needed MJ's heroics to scrap out game 6 in Utah. That series could have had a different outcome if their 'top 3 GOAT' PG actually produced remotely close to one, since you're here arguing that he was still good enough to have done so at that stage in his career. Who cares if he was cooking young Arenas or Baron Davis at 40. That's like the old fukker at the local gym using all the tricks he had learned over the years. What was he doing in game 3 of the 1998 finals?

The reason the Jazz 'destroyed' those Laker and Spurs team is because they were well-coached, well-oiled units and the Lakers/Spurs weren't ready for prime-time yet. The same Jazz team in 99 with Malone winning MVP couldn't get past a star-less Trailblazer squad. So it wasn't just that Jordan/Chicago stood in their way of winning titles. They couldn't do it in 94 and 95 with Jordan in mini-retirement nor could they do it when he left again in 98. You can't just say they were 'past their prime' in 99 because they were already past it in 98. Stockton even in his heyday couldn't break a game open with his scoring, he was steady and picked his spots, but he alone was never gonna beat you offensively, which is something the other great points of his era all had the ability to do ( Magic, Isiah, Price, KJ, Hardaway). Which is not to say he's not like top 4-5 all time at the position, but the revisionism on how he was viewed coming into the 90s after Isiah had spent the 80s battling and beating prime Magic, Bird and Jordan is bullshit.

In closing, the only way Stockton/Malone is in any way analogous to Isiah/Duncan when the Bulls played them in the finals is if you pretend that 1) 97/98 Stockton was close to prime Isiah or hell, even prime Stockton and 2) 97/98 Malone is on the level of prime Duncan when he was winning rings and Finals MVPs. Neither is remotely true.

[SouBeachTalents]

1998 Stockton couldn't even crack double digit scoring in the Finals, this was the level of competition Jordan was facing in the 90's

[Manny98]