09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay

[sdot_thadon]

Wasn't Kyrie the 2nd option on a team that won the entire western conference with Luka? While Lebron couldn't even get out of the 1st round with Doncic? Thats interesting.

Meanwhile that run with Luka was inferior to the 2016 run with Lebron. He didn't "outplay the Celtics 1st option" like he so famously here did against the warriors. Bostons 1st option only averaged 22 just like Curry in 2016, so why couldn't Kyrie "outplay" him the same if it had nothing to do with Lebron? Literally higher almost all the way across the board alongside Lebron. "Bron ball" somehow weaponized Kyrie to an extent no one had been able to since. Unless you want to tell me Curry sucked is the reason Kyrie was able to be that guy. Something isnt being said here apparently.

[tpols]

Kyrie iced the same team that embarrassed Luka and Lebron last year in the 1st round to win the Western Conference. Youre acting like he couldnt play without LeBron or never did anything else again which means you might have amnesia because you forgot about something that happened only a little over a year ago.

[sdot_thadon]

Kyrie iced the same team that embarrassed Luka and Lebron last year in the 1st round to win the Western Conference. Youre acting like he couldnt play without LeBron or never did anything else again which means you might have amnesia because you forgot about something that happened only a little over a year ago.

Nah im acting Iike he was at his best next to Lebron, won a chip, and hasn't since. Good reason why you didn't directly answer my post. Again why didn't he "outperform " the Celtics 1st option in just the next round?

[sdot_thadon]

Kyrie iced the same team that embarrassed Luka and Lebron last year in the 1st round to win the Western Conference. Youre acting like he couldnt play without LeBron or never did anything else again which means you might have amnesia because you forgot about something that happened only a little over a year ago.

Nah im acting Iike he was at his best next to Lebron, won a chip, and hasn't since. Good reason why you didn't directly answer my post. Again why didn't he "outperform " the Celtics 1st option in just the next round?

[3ba11]

Nah im acting Iike he was at his best next to Lebron, won a chip, and hasn't since.

Kyrie only played 2 years with Luka and 2 years with KD, so he hasn't gotten to team-hop around like Lebron and get 15 years with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka.

So cut the crap - LeCoddle - Lebron has been coddled with the best help that anyone ever had - no one played with more #1 draft picks or franchise players that had their own team

And speaking of guys making other guys better - why don't you compare the RS and PO numbers of Lebron for 08' and 09', aka mo's spacing EXPLODED lebron's game.

[3ba11]

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mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:

Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP

^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor here

[SouBeachTalents]

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mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:

Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP

^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor here

ALL due to Mo

[3ba11]

ALL due to Mo

LeDrive's advanced stats were stagnant from 06' to 08', so Mo's all-star spacing was the key for LeDrive - it's intuitive.

Otoh, Mo's advanced stats were already growing by leaps and bounds prior to joining Lebron, so his continued improvement in 09' can be attributed to a pattern of existing growth.

After Lebron's stint with Mo, every coach and GM knew how to get those max stats out of Lebron, aka give his stiff-arm skillset the spacing it needs.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeDrive's advanced stats were stagnant from 06' to 08', so Mo's all-star spacing was the key for LeDrive - it's intuitive.

Otoh, Mo's advanced stats were already growing by leaps and bounds prior to joining Lebron, so his continued improvement in 09' can be attributed to a pattern of existing growth.

After Lebron's stint with Mo, every coach and GM knew how to get those max stats out of Lebron, aka give his stiff-arm skillset the spacing it needs.

Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.

[3ba11]

Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.

See that's the thing - Mo only got a couple seasons with Lebron and barely played with other superstars, while Lebron played with more stars than anyone in history..

Lebron had 15 seasons with franchise players that had their own team, such as Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka - that's 6 franchise players that had their own team, and Lebron got 15 years with them - this is the most help ever.. Otoh, Mo got almost no time with other superstars... Btw, Lebron only had 1 sixty-win season in 15 tries with these franchise players, aka LeFraud.

[ShawkFactory]

Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.

I mean...look at it this way. If Mo fvcking Williams was all it took then it doesn't quite make the point he thinks

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing

[3ba11]

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing

Klay doesn't work because he doesn't provide the playmaking help that Lebron needs... Lebron loves to get high-assist players that can handle a reduction in assists like Mo, Wade, and many more, so Klay's skills don't qualify to play next to Lebron - he's a tad better than Korver.

And tons of other guys like Pippen wouldn't fit with Lebron because he's a historic bricklayer - Lebron needs a great spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP... mo's spacing was CLEARLY a better sidekick for lebron than pippen's bricklaying would be, and zero clutch.

[ShawkFactory]

Klay doesn't work because he doesn't provide the playmaking help that Lebron needs... Lebron loves to get high-assist players that can handle a reduction in assists like Mo, Wade, and many more, so Klay's skills don't qualify to play next to Lebron - he's a tad better than Korver.

And tons of other guys like Pippen wouldn't fit with Lebron because he's a historic bricklayer - Lebron needs a great spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP.

Oh I see so it's SPECIFICALLY Mo Williams. Only Mo.

Holy shit you've always been a huge correlation = causation guy but this shit is next level

[sdot_thadon]

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mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:

Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP

^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor here

What a dummy, 08 Cavs shot 35% from 3, 09 Cavs shot 39%. He had better shooting around him in 09. Not just Mo. And in the 0layoffs in 09 that % dipped. Btw love how you ran away from my question about Kyrie. Why was his best next to Lebron and why couldn't he reach that level anywhere else?

[3ba11]

What a dummy, 08 Cavs shot 35% from 3, 09 Cavs shot 39%. He had better shooting around him in 09. Not just Mo. And in the 0layoffs in 09 that % dipped. Btw love how you ran away from my question about Kyrie. Why was his best next to Lebron and why couldn't he reach that level anywhere else?

Mo was growing each year before joining Lebron, and then his career was cut short by injures after Lebron left - that's obvious and common knowledge.

But Lebron still caught the best version of Mo and became the league favorite with him, but he lost as an OKC-level favorite to the Magic... Even Lebron himself says that he "f*cked up" and should've won that series.. The Cavs had the #3 defense and Mo provided 18 on 38%, but Lebron couldn't win with this, even though Jordan always did.... Lebron has always needed more scoring help because he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).

And again, the answer to your question of "why didn't Player X win without Lebron" is that they sacrificed their prime for Lebron, and never played with other superstars after Lebron left, while Lebron has 15 seasons with other superstars like Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, Luka, and more (Ingram, Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo).. This is the most help than anyone ever had.