Every 2nd option took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, except Pippen

[3ba11]

You’re the one who brought up Stockton. Go read your first post.

In the 88 Lakers series, Malone averaged 29 to Stockton’s 19. You really want to say that Stockton was first option or top dog in that series.

In the 97 WCF, Stockton was great and his game winner basically broke the Rockets (I live in Houston). But still not a first option, nor even top dog on the team.

Don’t change your criteria. Stockton was great. The Jazz may have been the epitome of the two man game, but there was never any series in which Malone was not the top guy.

I'm not changing anything - you haven't poked a hole or found a good example yet of a sidekick that never took over as 1st option and the best player, because Stockton DID:

4th quarter scoring 1997 WCF:

Stockton'... 8.2 on 60%
Malone...... 6.3 on 42%

Again, pippen is the only sidekick that failed to take over the "top dog" or 1st option role in a series - I believe that Stockton did many times based on his equal-scoring partner status with Malone in the 97' WCF coupled with his Jordan-level clutch-time numbers and 33% scoring edge on Malone in the 4th

Regardless, all the other sidekicks did, such as Worthy, Starks, X-Man, Dumars, KJ, Porter, Payton, Penny, etc.. And all modern sidekicks... the only guy that was really just a dunker was Pippen - he could only be 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to carry him, otherwise he was 3rd through 6th option as we saw in Houston or Portland.

[sdot_thadon]

Thiose guys had a series where they could be called 1st option, (as illegitimate as that bs sounds) meanwhile Scottie had an entire season as 1st option and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Lets hear when any of those guys, or most of their 1st options for that matter did the same. Pippen thanks you for your contributions in shedding light on his individual greatness.

[97 bulls]

3ball has been thoroughly beaten on this topic many times. All that will happen is that he will just no longer post here when he can't respond and then make another thread with the same nonsense.

The fact is that Jordan was never going to allow Pippen take a "1st option" role. He was going to get his shots up regardless of how bad he was playing offensively. On the 92 Dream Team, Jordan took almost as many shots as the next two players combined. Why? 3ball can't answer that and it refutes the notion that Jordan would have allowed Pippen to score more points than be did. Ask 3ball why Jordan took so many FGAs on the Dream Team.

The whole argument is dumb anyway. If Pippen would've set out to score more points than Jordan, he could've. Then you'd have a shot jacking contest vs Jordan and Pippen. The team would've suffered but the Jordanites would be satisfied SMH.

[Axe]

Like kelly oubre jr., who was more of a second-option than klay ever was when both of them were still with the warriors, yes?

dumb

[3ba11]

3ball has been thoroughly beaten on this topic many times. All that will happen is that he will just no longer post here when he can't respond and then make another thread with the same nonsense.

The fact is that Jordan was never going to allow Pippen take a "1st option" role. He was going to get his shots up regardless of how bad he was playing offensively. On the 92 Dream Team, Jordan took almost as many shots as the next two players combined. Why? 3ball can't answer that and it refutes the notion that Jordan would have allowed Pippen to score more points than be did. Ask 3ball why Jordan took so many FGAs on the Dream Team.

The whole argument is dumb anyway. If Pippen would've set out to score more points than Jordan, he could've. Then you'd have a shot jacking contest vs Jordan and Pippen. The team would've suffered but the Jordanites would be satisfied SMH.

^^^ you think that delusional garbage beats me??.. It sounds like you still believe in Santa Claus.

Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a "system player", who couldn't dominate, "take over", or command doubles.. This is because his scoring ability was really weak in the halfcourt - his iso ability was the worst of any 90's sidekick BAR NONE - he lacked a breakdown handle or good touch on his jumper - he rarely did "fadeaways", and virtually never did turnaround fadeaways.. And he couldn't pull up off a HARD dribble (going hard one direction and then pulling up on a dime).... These are basic things that he struggled with.. That's why he couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system and barely 20 in it... And of course, when the game was tight, Pippen was completely unavailable similar to Andre Roberson (a great defender that played for OKC alongside KD).

And the reason that Jordan took the most shots in the Olympics is because this was necessary to maintain the standard of winning by 40+... aka the best scorer should be the focus of the defense - this maximizes everyone else and creates the largest margin of victory.. If the standard was to simply win, then Jordan doesn't need to lead the shot attempts.. .But since the standard was to win by 40+, then the best player has to take the most shots and be the focus of the defense... This is also why Jordan averaged 45 in the 92' 1st Round against the lowly Heat - the standard was to SWEEP - anything less was unacceptable, so MJ had to take the most shots.

[3ba11]

Thiose guys had a series where they could be called 1st option, (as illegitimate as that bs sounds) meanwhile Scottie had an entire season as 1st option and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Lets hear when any of those guys, or most of their 1st options for that matter did the same. Pippen thanks you for your contributions in shedding light on his individual greatness.

MVP voting means literally nothing and is based on things like surprise factor - if Pippen was really the man, then he would've won MVP because he had everything set up for him, aka 55 wins without MJ??.. So how did he not win MVP?... It's because he's just Pippen and everyone knew he wasn't a dominant player or anywhere near the top guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone and other true franchise players like Shaq, etc.. Everyone knew that he was never on this level, or anywhere near.

Heck, Kukoc hit 5 game-winners during the 94' season, so he was Phil's choice when a bucket was needed - Pippen knew this, but when the spotlight was greatest in the playoffs and New York City, he got embarrassed and couldn't handle being exposed as 2nd fiddle to Kukoc.. He was a baby and it's amazing that MJ won any rings with such a carried, non-dominant and mentally-weak sidekick... Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals, so he couldn't handle additional load and therefore forced MJ to average 41 ppg to win... Any team that needs 41 ppg from the 1st option is a bad cast.

Ultimately, the reason that MJ sprinted past Bird and Magic is because they needed super-teams to barely hang with Detroit, while MJ swept them easily with just one other all-star - he won 6 with just Pippen - that's why he's GOAT - he didn't need a team of stars.. Accordingly, MJ's sidekick was always going to get overrated, since he's unbeatable the instant he gets an all-star... He didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years the instant he got an all-star.. That's goat.

Btw, the media voted for MJ/Pippen like a joint ticket, otherwise Pippen would never be in the top 10 for MVP voting in any season - he never got within 10 ppg of MJ and got less DPOY votes nearly ever year, so how could a carried player get MVP votes??.. It's just the dumb media that voted for MJ/Pip like a joint ticket.

[sdot_thadon]

MVP voting means literally nothing and is based on things like surprise factor - if Pippen was really the man, then he would've won MVP because he had everything set up for him, aka 55 wins without MJ??.. So how did he not win MVP?... It's because he's just Pippen and everyone knew he wasn't a dominant player or anywhere near the top guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone and other true franchise players like Shaq, etc.. Everyone knew that he was never on this level, or anywhere near.

Heck, Kukoc hit 5 game-winners during the 94' season, so he was Phil's choice when a bucket was needed - Pippen knew this, but when the spotlight was greatest in the playoffs and New York City, he got embarrassed and couldn't handle being exposed as 2nd fiddle to Kukoc.. He was a baby and it's amazing that MJ won any rings with such a carried, non-dominant and mentally-weak sidekick... Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals, so he couldn't handle additional load and therefore forced MJ to average 41 ppg to win... Any team that needs 41 ppg from the 1st option is a bad cast.

Ultimately, the reason that MJ sprinted past Bird and Magic is because they needed super-teams to barely hang with Detroit, while MJ swept them easily with just one other all-star - he won 6 with just Pippen - that's why he's GOAT - he didn't need a team of stars.. Accordingly, MJ's sidekick was always going to get overrated, since he's unbeatable the instant he gets an all-star... He didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years the instant he got an all-star.. That's goat.

Btw, the media voted for MJ/Pippen like a joint ticket, otherwise Pippen would never be in the top 10 for MVP voting in any season - he never got within 10 ppg of MJ and got less DPOY votes nearly ever year, so how could a carried player get MVP votes??.. It's just the dumb media that voted for MJ/Pip like a joint ticket.

And again you posted all that to avoid addressing what you quoted. As I said those guys had a series where they could be considered "1st option" which, mind you, is incoherent phsycobabble being applied for a stupid effing reason. Youre not the 1st option just because the best player had an off series or you had a great one. The 1st option is the main guy the team is centered around....by default. Not for a specific match up or because other guys get more shots. Its idiotic to believe Magic was somehow the 3rd option on any team he breathed on. Magic was the sun his teams revolved around. Worthy getting a fmvp doesnt mean he was 1st option, it means he had a great series. That said those guys you mentioned had a good series, wow. Pippen had an entire season as the main guy, which one of those listed did that? And which ones ever voted as high as 3rd in mvp voting? Which one of their 1st options ever had a 3rd place finish? Maybe a couple but definitely not many. Pippen was the best sidekick of his era and amongst the best sidekicks ever. Period.

[3ba11]

And again you posted all that to avoid addressing what you quoted. As I said those guys had a series where they could be considered "1st option" which, mind you, is incoherent phsycobabble being applied for a stupid effing reason. Youre not the 1st option just because the best player had an off series or you had a great one. The 1st option is the main guy the team is centered around....by default. Not for a specific match up or because other guys get more shots. Its idiotic to believe Magic was somehow the 3rd option on any team he breathed on. Magic was the sun his teams revolved around. Worthy getting a fmvp doesnt mean he was 1st option, it means he had a great series. That said those guys you mentioned had a good series, wow. Pippen had an entire season as the main guy, which one of those listed did that? And which ones ever voted as high as 3rd in mvp voting? Which one of their 1st options ever had a 3rd place finish? Maybe a couple but definitely not many. Pippen was the best sidekick of his era and amongst the best sidekicks ever. Period.

You misread the thread title - it says Pippen is the only 2nd option that never TOOK OVER the 1st option role in a series - the "took over" verbage matters because it implies that the player is normally the 2nd option, but in this particular series, they took over the 1st option role/leading scorer... Pippen is the only 2nd option that never did this - he's the only 2nd option that was carried in every series (never took over the 1st option role).

Hope that helps.

And btw, Worthy averaged 31 on 62% in the 87' WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals, in addition to the FMVP in 88'... So again, all 2nd options were capable of taking over the 1st option role and carrying the team, except Pippen.

And when Pippen was already 1st option in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing easily outplayed him, while Pippen wasn't even the 1st option when a bucket was needed (Kukoc was).

[sdot_thadon]

You misread the thread title - it says Pippen is the only 2nd option that never TOOK OVER the 1st option role in a series - the "took over" verbage matters because it implies that the player is normally the 2nd option, but in this particular series, they took over the 1st option role/leading scorer... Pippen is the only 2nd option that never did this - he's the only 2nd option that was carried in every series (never took over the 1st option role).

Hope that helps.

And btw, Worthy averaged 31 on 62% in the 87' WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals, in addition to the FMVP in 88'... So again, all 2nd options were capable of taking over the 1st option role and carrying the team, except Pippen.

And when Pippen was already 1st option in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing easily outplayed him, while Pippen wasn't even the 1st option when a bucket was needed (Kukoc was).

Nope read it right, and reminded you that Pippen never took over a series, those other guys never took over an entire SEASON. Thats all.

[sdot_thadon]

You misread the thread title - it says Pippen is the only 2nd option that never TOOK OVER the 1st option role in a series - the "took over" verbage matters because it implies that the player is normally the 2nd option, but in this particular series, they took over the 1st option role/leading scorer... Pippen is the only 2nd option that never did this - he's the only 2nd option that was carried in every series (never took over the 1st option role).

Hope that helps.

And btw, Worthy averaged 31 on 62% in the 87' WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals, in addition to the FMVP in 88'... So again, all 2nd options were capable of taking over the 1st option role and carrying the team, except Pippen.

And when Pippen was already 1st option in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing easily outplayed him, while Pippen wasn't even the 1st option when a bucket was needed (Kukoc was).

Nope read it right, and reminded you that Pippen never took over a series, those other guys never took over an entire SEASON. Thats all.

[3ba11]

Nope read it right, and reminded you that Pippen never took over a series, those other guys never took over an entire SEASON. Thats all.

Pippen would never have been a 1st option if MJ didn't suddenly retire, while other sidekicks were frequently 1st options for many seasons - their superior ability/status as a 1st option is why they could takeover a series from the 2nd option spot and Pippen couldn't (carried in every series).

Essentially, Pippen was the only career 2nd option, while other sidekicks like Worthy, KJ, Penny, Dumars, and Payton/Kemp were 1st options for many years and often considered 1st options in general... And considering that they weren't handed the goat dynasty like Pippen was, their teams did much better than the 94' and 95' Bulls..

Ultimately, the 55 wins fits the definition of a fluke because the Bulls proved in 95' that they weren't a "real" 50 win team that could win 50 every year, while Pippen was gifted the team and couldn't build a 50 win team from scratch (not a franchise player) - so they were the flukiest 50 win team ever with unprecedented circumstances..

Accordingly, the 94' and 95' Bulls are a low bar for a 1st option that most sidekicks met when they were 1st option.. Payton won 61 games in 98' after Kemp left and was 3rd for MVP.. Meanwhile, Kemp was a great 1st option for the Cavs since he carried the non-all-star version of Zydrunas to the 98' playoffs, while Lebron was lottery with all-star Zydrunas in 05'.. Zydrunas was the sidekick both times... Furthermore, Kemp averaged 26 on 48% against the 98' Pacers in those playoffs, compared to 16 on 39% for Pippen.. Payton and Kemp also destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals.

Furthermore, Worthy won titles as 1st option, while guys like KJ, Dumars, Kemp and Penny produced 47-53 win teams as 1st option despite not inheriting the goat dynasty like Pippen did.. All these guys were better scorers than Pippen and none of them embarrassed themselves in clutch-time by sitting out, or having migraines, or losing 17 p the lead in the 4th quarter... Accordingly, in addition to being the only sidekick that never took over the 1st option role in a series (carried in every series), Pippen is the only sidekick with many historic chokes

[3ba11]

Pippen would never have been a 1st option if MJ didn't suddenly retire, while other sidekicks were frequently 1st options for many seasons - their superior ability/status as a 1st option is why they could takeover a series from the 2nd option spot and Pippen couldn't (carried in every series).

Essentially, Pippen was the only career 2nd option, while other sidekicks like Worthy, KJ, Penny, Dumars, and Payton/Kemp were 1st options for many years and often considered 1st options in general... And considering that they weren't handed the goat dynasty like Pippen was, their teams did much better than the 94' and 95' Bulls..

Ultimately, the 55 wins fits the definition of a fluke because the Bulls proved in 95' that they weren't a "real" 50 win team that could win 50 every year, while Pippen was gifted the team and couldn't build a 50 win team from scratch (not a franchise player) - so they were the flukiest 50 win team ever with unprecedented circumstances..

Accordingly, the 94' and 95' Bulls are a low bar for a 1st option that most sidekicks met when they were 1st option.. Payton won 61 games in 98' after Kemp left and was 3rd for MVP.. Meanwhile, Kemp was a great 1st option for the Cavs since he carried the non-all-star version of Zydrunas to the 98' playoffs, while Lebron was lottery with all-star Zydrunas in 05'.. Zydrunas was the sidekick both times... Furthermore, Kemp averaged 26 on 48% against the 98' Pacers in those playoffs, compared to 16 on 39% for Pippen.. Payton and Kemp also destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals.

Furthermore, Worthy won titles as 1st option, while guys like KJ, Dumars, Kemp and Penny produced 47-53 win teams as 1st option despite not inheriting the goat dynasty like Pippen did.. All these guys were better scorers than Pippen and none of them embarrassed themselves in clutch-time by sitting out, or having migraines, or losing 17 p the lead in the 4th quarter... Accordingly, in addition to being the only sidekick that never took over the 1st option role in a series (carried in every series), Pippen is the only sidekick with many historic chokes

[ImKobe]

3ball has been thoroughly beaten on this topic many times. All that will happen is that he will just no longer post here when he can't respond and then make another thread with the same nonsense.

The fact is that Jordan was never going to allow Pippen take a "1st option" role. He was going to get his shots up regardless of how bad he was playing offensively. On the 92 Dream Team, Jordan took almost as many shots as the next two players combined. Why? 3ball can't answer that and it refutes the notion that Jordan would have allowed Pippen to score more points than be did. Ask 3ball why Jordan took so many FGAs on the Dream Team.

The whole argument is dumb anyway. If Pippen would've set out to score more points than Jordan, he could've. Then you'd have a shot jacking contest vs Jordan and Pippen. The team would've suffered but the Jordanites would be satisfied SMH.

Oh so Jordan was the issue? Did Pippen's scoring explode post-MJ in the mid-90s or in the late 90s? Nope. He took what, an extra shot and an extra FT per game without Jordan to average a few more points? You'd think the Bulls would've had him taking 20+ shots a game. Instead Phil didn't even trust him to take the last shot when it mattered in the POs. He wasn't built like that bro.

[ShawkFactory]

Jalen Nailor had more yards and catches than Justin Jefferson last week. I guess he was the first option and top dawg.

[3ba11]

Oh so Jordan was the issue? Did Pippen's scoring explode post-MJ in the mid-90s or in the late 90s? Nope. He took what, an extra shot and an extra FT per game without Jordan to average a few more points? You'd think the Bulls would've had him taking 20+ shots a game. Instead Phil didn't even trust him to take the last shot when it mattered in the POs. He wasn't built like that bro.

Pippen had worst-ever efficiency on 3 title runs, yet he deserved more shots??? :

Agreed... Why would this guy get more shots when he couldn't even handle the 16 PPG load he was given???...


This chart excludes the 1993 run when Pippen had worst-ever efficiency as well

Imagine being such a massive bricklayer even though no one is even guarding you because all the attention goes to the GOAT.. Pippen's bricklaying made MJ face packed paints